'CIA prisons:' EU warns members

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

Burns - "BTW.... no secret prisons, no torture was used and you can make a bet that all arrested can call their lawyers."

You don't know any of this, Mr. Burns...it's easy to hide such things in your own country. I wouldn't make such assumptions at all...while not an official (that I know of) policy, I'm sure it's happened. To deny it is to deny human nature. You may honestly think europeans are better than everyone else, but I don't.

You also left out that these raids took place in Paris (of all places), and that suspected terrorists are now being held for up to 60 days instead of four. (How embarrassing for a fledgling "reporter"!) It seems that the US is not the only country that knows it takes time to uncover the truth. :eyebrow

Galmin - "There could be a wall built around France to prevent anyone from entering and still the potential for riots would not change."

I agree, in the short-term. In the long term, after extremists have proselytized more followers, the potential increases. In a related article:

"'Muslim extremists have in recent years deeply penetrated the suburbs,' says Stephane Berthomet, a former anti-terrorist investigator who now works for the Synergie police union."

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4493706.stm

...and you can bet they didn't get them all in their last series of raids. It's like trying to fix the barn-door after the horse is already home. It's too late. In order to stop "cancer" you have to cut it all out...a monumentally more difficult task than preventing it in the first place. French efforts, while somewhat commendable, are too little, too late.

Edited by: DreamTone7 at: 12/12/05 15:20

MIKE BURN · Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:03 pm Post subject: Re:

Quote:
DreamTone7

Burns - "BTW.... no secret prisons, no torture was used and you can make a bet that all arrested can call their lawyers."

You don't know any of this, Mr. Burns...it's easy to hide such things in your own country.

Mike Burn (without "s") man

)

No, in contrary it is actually very hard to hide anything in my country's justice system.

MIKE BURN

The USA are bringing mistrust and unrest to Europe:

Quote:
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1815512,00.html

Europe | 13.12.2005

Council of Europe Investigators Release Initial CIA Findings

The CIA appears to have abducted people in Europe and illegally transferred them to other countries, according to the initial results of a Council of Europe investigation released on Tuesday.

"Legal proceedings under way in certain countries appear to show that individuals were abducted and transferred to other countries without respect for any legal assistance procedures," Council of Europe rapporteur Dick Marty told a meeting of the body's human rights committee in Paris.

The Swiss senator said the results of his investigation lent credibility to reports that the CIA flew terrorist suspects to and from secret prisons in Europe. Marty added that he believed the United States was no longer holding prisoners clandestinely in Europe. It is suspected that the prisoners were moved to North Africa in early November, when reports about secret US prisons first emerged in The Washington Post.

"The elements we have gathered so far tend to reinforce the credibility of the allegations concerning the transport and temporary detention of detainees -- outside all judicial procedure in European countries," he said in an official statement, the first initial findings from the investigation into alleged CIA flights and abductions in Europe.

The rapporteur "demands immediately that all member governments fully commit to uncovering the truth about flights and overflights on their territory in recent years, by aircraft transporting people arrested and detained outside of any legal procedure."

(U.S./CIA prison in Kosovo)

The idea of a clandestine operation by the CIA, possibly aided and abetted by unknown European states, is of particular concern to the investigators. Tony Lloyd, a member of the Council of Europe committee, said: "The really difficult thing is the idea is that there is a kind of legal black hole in the middle of Europe."

Marty also criticized the United States for failing to provide information to the Council of Europe's investigators and added that the US has never formally denied the allegations brought against the CIA.

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice failed to rebut the CIA prison and torture allegations during her recent visit to Europe despite being repeatedly questioned about the affair, saying only that American interrogators were bound by a UN treaty banning the use of torture, regardless of whether they were working in the US or abroad.

Complicit European states face harsh consequences

"While it was still too early to assert that there had been any involvement or complicity of member states in illegal actions, the seriousness of the allegations and the consistency of the information gathered to date justified the continuation of an in-depth inquiry," he said. "If the allegations proved correct the member states would stand accused of having seriously breached their human rights obligations to the Council of Europe."

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

It will be interesting to see how (and if) the media moves from the word "appears" to "was". As of yet, no smoking gun and a lot of supposition.

Quote - "'While it was still too early to assert that there had been any involvement or complicity of member states in illegal actions, the seriousness of the allegations and the consistency of the information gathered to date justified the continuation of an in-depth inquiry," he said. "If the allegations proved correct the member states would stand accused of having seriously breached their human rights obligations to the Council of Europe.'"

Problem is that now the EU has tried to lower to boom on some countries, it's going to be hard for them to admit they had something to do with it. If the EU really wanted to find the truth, they would have done the investigation first and laid accusations later. Now the results of the "legal procedings" have been tainted. Just the way to do things if you want to be able to point at the US and say "they did it all by themselves". So much for justice. The EU's true colors are showing.

quote - "The rapporteur 'demands immediately that all member governments fully commit to uncovering the truth about flights and overflights on their territory in recent years, by aircraft transporting people arrested and detained outside of any legal procedure.'"

Now much less likely to happen, thanks again to the media.

Burn - "The USA are bringing mistrust and unrest to Europe..."

If justice were truly the issue, then this would not come until after the results of the investigation were in.

Edited by: DreamTone7 at: 12/13/05 22:44

MIKE BURN · Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: re

Quote:
DreamTone7

If justice were truly the issue, then this would not come until after the results of the investigation were in.

We are talking facts, the initial results of the investigation show facts, not only likelyhoods.

A German citizen was abducted and flown to Afghanistan, imprisoned for 5 months and tortured.

Facts, not fantasy.

German foreign minister Steinmeier confirmed 20 minutes ago in German TV that we are talking facts and that the CIA did not inform any German authority.

It is not written in U.S. media, but German authorities will use force the next time to protect German citizens of being abducted by U.S. "intelligence services". The time of cooperation is long over. We don't buy the "war on terror" hype and we don't participate - if then by our own will, not the will of the U.S. administration.

ans · Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 441

Steinmeier: German-American friendship and European integration must remain the two cornerstones of German foreign policy . . . Continuity means adjusting to new situations and new challenges and searching for creative solutions. However, finding new positions doesn’t mean questioning the transatlantic partnership between Europe and the United States and especially not German-American friendship.

www.germany-info.org/rela...20505.html

:wm

MIKE BURN

The U.S. lies are too numerous and too crazy (see quote below) that any normal citizen here would talk diplomacy like Steinmeier did in your quote above. That's official diplomacy, but I simply know that my fellow Germans will not tolerate anymore of this without doing anything.

Quote:
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1817495,00.html

Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier, Interior Minister Wolfgang Schäuble and Justice Minister Brigitte Zypries were questioned by lawmakers behind closed doors before the parliamentary debate.

During the debate, Schäuble confirmed for the first time that his predecessor, Otto Schily, had been informed about the kidnapping by then US Ambassador to Germany Dan Coats in summer 2004. Coats said the US had apologized to el Masri and paid him some money, according to Schäuble.

Numerous German newspapers quoted el Masri's lawyer as saying that his client had not received any payment.

Zypries said the German justice ministry first learned about the Masri case in June 2004. According to the justice ministry, the German attorney general's office later decided against an investigation, because evidence of a politically motivated crime was insufficient.

"We did everything that was needed for a process governed by the rule of law," Zypries said.

The public prosecutor's office in Munich is currently investigating the case.

The Council of Europe, a 46-member rights and democracy body, on Tuesday said the allegations of secret CIA prisons were credible and that the United States appeared to have illegally abducted and detained individuals and that some European governments may have colluded.

A report by the body's special investigator concluded that "the information gathered to date reinforced the credibility of the allegations concerning the transport and temporary detention of detainees -- outside all judicial procedure -- in European countries."

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

One person is singular in English, Mike...not plural. As in "person"...as opposed to "people".

And if the German people are indeed as truly upset about one person as Mike (and the rest of his like) would like to have us all believe, then they should be complaining to their own government about a lack of national security as well.

In other words: Fix your apparently lame national security! :ohno

Makes me wonder how good it truly is at stopping terrorists if the US can just waltz in and snag somebody...unless, of course, the German government knew about it all along. Now there's an interesting thought. :eyebrow

Care to ask your own government some questions, Mike?

Melody and Instruments for the soul...

ans · Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 441

"German-American friendship and European integration must remain the two cornerstones of German foreign policy. Continuity means adjusting to new situations and new challenges and searching for creative solutions. However, finding new positions doesnâ€™t mean questioning the transatlantic partnership between Europe and the United States and especially not German-American friendship."

Did Steinmeier actually say this or was he mis-quoted? Is he a normal citizen?

MIKE BURN · Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: confused

Quote:
DreamTone7

And if the German people are indeed as truly upset about one person as Mike (and the rest of his like) would like to have us all believe, then they should be complaining to their own government about a lack of national security as well.

My oh my, you even don't read the insane stories from your CIA in full before responding.

The German citizen was abducted by the CIA while being on holidays in Macedonia, not on German ground.

Apart from this fact we don't need to ask our government for action, the government and the whole parliament are already taking action and you can hear (in German TV - following the live debate) "there is an end for cooperation with the U.S.". I'm glad for that clearness.

Meanwhile the European Parliament launched a CIA Prisons Investigation.

I'm sure that somehow the U.S. will learn, that there is a limit for impertinences.

HKRockChick · No More Peas! Joined: 25 Nov 2003 Posts: 1513

Quote:
I'm sure that somehow the U.S. will learn, that there is a limit for impertinences.

Yah, when hell freezes over.

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

Burn - "I'm glad for that clearness."

I'm glad for yours regarding your stance on relations with the US as well.

Galmin · The King has spoken! Joined: 30 Dec 2001 Posts: 1711

Quote:
In the long term, after extremists have proselytized more followers, the potential increases

Can you explain the riots in Cronulla, Sidney, Australia? You know, the riots were roughly 5.000 white Australians chased down and beat people of Lebanese descent while shouting "Kill the Lebs", burning cars, attacking ambulances carrying wounded people and pelting police vehicles with beer bottles?

Who do we blame? Members of the Australia First Party, proselytizing followers to do the rioting? Church TV? John Howard? Maybe we can rely on DT to conjure some Islamic radicals out of nowhere to put the stick on?