US used white phosphorus in Iraq

[Galmin]

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I've read that it was only used in the beginning of the invasion when there were Iraqi tanks to be taken out, though.

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That is highly unlikely.



DU is used for it's density, DU shells are used for their mass (and it's capablity to cut through virtually anything) and the heat that mass produces while burning. DU shells are today standard issue and probably have been used during the whole period from the first day of invasion until the "mission accomplished" thingie. It was definitely used for other things than merely taking some tanks out in the beginning. (Just take a peek at the GBU 31/32, used widely to bust the bunker de jour of Saddam, piercing holes in Baghdad and each generating hundred of tons of Uranium Oxide dust).



Is Depleted Uranium the best material for this? Nope. Tungsten would do an even better job, though you do not get Tungsten for free from the Government who is happy as hell to get rid of the waste from nuclear power (that a Tungsten and Copper alloy wouldn't generate any clouds of creeping death is beside the point. It's expensive!).



Though not overly radioactive before usage, DU generates a highly poisonous dust on impact that can travel far and wide.



Clusterbombs:

Used in Iraq not only for Airstrips. Banned by International Laws of War because it is a weapon of indiscriminate effect.



White Phosphorous:

The US Government has claimed that WP was only used for illumination at Fallujah. Hahaha.

Well, it seems they have rectified that mistake now.

Edited by: Galmin  at: 11/16/05 12:30

[MIKE BURN]

The USA are always a bit slower, so finally today they admit it on the CNN frontpage and Washington is now trying to weasel out of everything. It reads almost like "white phosphorus" is good for illumination and harmless.

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http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/11/16/white.phosphorous.ap/index.html



U.S. admits using white phosphorous as weapon



Wednesday, November 16, 2005 Posted: 0839 GMT (1639 HKT)



WASHINGTON (AP) -- Pentagon officials acknowledged Tuesday that U.S. troops used white phosphorous as a weapon against insurgent strongholds during the battle of Fallujah last November.



At the same time, they denied an Italian television news report that the spontaneously flammable material had been used against civilians.

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The main point of the story is, that there was a RAI24 (Italian TV) report last week, where pictures were shown when the U.S. used white phosphorus against civilians - who burnt even "better" when they tried to put out the flames with water.

[HKRockChick]

They only admitted last year or so that they used tons more agent orange in Vietnam than they thought during the war. huh.



As to DU - DT, I suppose its futile to ask you to stop believing the rubbish you read in right wing media and what the powers almighty would have you believe. Exploded DU particles are inhalable and when inhaled or settling on open wounds are extremely penetrating and damaging to soft tissue. But we've been through this before, and you refused to be ed-u-ma-cated, so what can I say.



I find it alarming that you are quoting countries that used WP in WWII!!!!!!!!!!!! One would hope we've come a long way in human rights since then, or have we? After all its only been, what, half a century????? Or may be you get pleasure in equating your country's standards with the lowest common denominator?

Edited by: HKRockChick at: 11/16/05 12:25

[DreamTone7]

HKRC - "As to DU - DT, I suppose its futile to ask you to stop believing the rubbish you read in right wing media..."



I don't read any...and if I find a piece of work is either grossly left OR right, I stop reading it.



Let me give you another example of "leftist-media", and it's effects upon those without the where-with-all to question it and dig deeper:



A low-calorie sugar substitute called sodium-saccarine was introduced on the market under the brand name "Sweet and Low". As with any new food or drug product, it had to go through many tests...among those, tests for carcenogenic tendancies. The tests showed many things. Among those things was that saccarine did cause cancer in laboratory test animals (rats, to be precise). The leftist media took that and plastered it all over the news and in magazines. The leftist readers bought it all (of course...anything that allows them to be outraged is bought into immediately without question). They ranted and raved at the government about it, and the government finally just figured it was better to concede than fight the issue. Now, all packages containing saccarine must be labelled to the effect that it has been known to cause cancer in laboratory test animals.



Some interesting points in the laboratory tests that the leftist media decided to leave out:



1) They had to give the rats the human equivalent of about 2 pounds of saccarine a day in order to induce cancer.



2) The amount of sugar needed to induce cancer in the same situation was LESS than the amount of saccarine!



So, in not telling the whole story, the leftist media (who is interested in selling their "stuff" to leftist people who enjoy being outraged about something...anything will do) misrepresented the truth about saccarine. In other words, they lied. Based on what happened, most foods we eat should now bear the label "Has been known to cause cancer in laboratory test animals". Totally rediculous. But if we don't do that, people who read the labels will think sugar is less carcenogenic than saccarine, which is not true.





Now, back to DU. Same story. DU is only 60% (read: LESS) radioactive than naturally occuring Uranium. It is passed through the body through the usual means in the same way the body passes natural Uranium...without incident. There are currently 70 American Veterans who received DU shrapnel in their bodies that are being closely monitored by the government for medical consequences...with the intent of looking long-term (at least the next 30 years) as well as short term. Short term, there have been no complications. Of the 70, 24 have since had children...none of them with birth-defects of any kind. What does this say? It says that birth defects in Iraq that have been claimed (by leftist media, again) to be the result of DU contact are, most likely, bogus and unsubstantiated.



As for inhaling amounts of DU, it would be the toxic effect, rather than radiation, that could (in sufficient amounts) cause complications...birth defects not being one of them. But, as with the saccarine example, you'd have to inhale so much of it that it, again, falls into the scope of being rediculous. With the way the wind blows things around the desert, it comes close to the impossible.





BUT...since you obviously enjoy reading these half-truths (that end up equating to lies) and enjoy being enraged by them, then by all means continue!





(My turn for the popcorn...don't hog it all!)





HKRC - "Or may be you get pleasure in equating your country's standards with the lowest common denominator?"



OK...I'll give you a break here. First, before you go any further, why don't you actually find out for yourself what WP is and how it is used on the battlefield. This way, you won't look any more foolish than you already do.



Hence, my original question to Mike (the starter of this thread): So?



I'll even give you a hint (though, for any non-leftist media follower, it wouldn't be necessary): The leftist media didn't give the whole story. (What a shock.)

Melody and Instruments for the soul...

[DreamTone7]

Galmin - "DU is used for it's density, DU shells are used for their mass (and it's capablity to cut through virtually anything)..."



Like the armour of a tank, perhaps?



Come on, Galmin...think before you type!

[DreamTone7]

Mike - "The main point of the story is, that there was a RAI24 (Italian TV) report last week, where pictures were shown when the U.S. used white phosphorus against civilians - who burnt even "better" when they tried to put out the flames with water."



Then how come you didn't post that here, Mike? A picture is worth a thousand words...and potentially a thousand lies. I could take a picture of my garbage-can on fire and claim it was WP. Where's this "report" now? Why did it disappear? How come it's not on the front-page at your house, Mike? Could it be because it was, *gulp*, fabricated?

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The BBC reports that the US denounced the documentary as "disinformation." It aired a day after Iraq's president, Jalal Talabani, came to Italy for a five-day visit.

The documentary began with formerly classified footage of the Americans using napalm bombs during the Vietnam War. The film repeated accusations that Washington has systematically attempted to destroy filmed evidence of the alleged use of chemical weapons in the attack on Falluja last November.





and then:



Last March 3, an article in AlJazeera.com (a site different than the one for the more familiar Al Jazzera satellite TV channel) carried a report that alleged a Dr. Khalid ash Shaykhli, an Iraqi health ministry official, told a Baghdad press conference that the US military had used internationally banned chemical weapons, including nerve gas. The US information service wrote later that month that the story of Dr. Shaykhli was fabricated, and claimed the press conference never took place.



www.csmonitor.com/2005/11...pdate.html

___________________________________________________





They'll keep making it up as long as folks keep swollowing it. And so it goes...

Melody and Instruments for the soul...

Edited by: DreamTone7  at: 11/17/05 0:56

[HKRockChick]

DT: "There are currently 70 American Veterans who received DU shrapnel in their bodies that are being closely monitored by the government for medical consequences...with the intent of looking long-term (at least the next 30 years) as well as short term. Short term, there have been no complications. Of the 70, 24 have since had children...none of them with birth-defects of any kind. What does this say?"



It says you believe the tripe your government is feeding you that's what it says. Remember, they also said Iraq had WMDs from all their research. hahahahahahaha



DT: "As for inhaling amounts of DU, it would be the toxic effect, rather than radiation, that could (in sufficient amounts) cause complications...birth defects not being one of them. But, as with the saccarine example, you'd have to inhale so much of it that it, again, falls into the scope of being rediculous. With the way the wind blows things around the desert, it comes close to the impossible."



And you know this as an expert? Post your sources if you please.



HKRC - "Or may be you get pleasure in equating your country's standards with the lowest common denominator?"



DT: "OK...I'll give you a break here. First, before you go any further, why don't you actually find out for yourself what WP is and how it is used on the battlefield. This way, you won't look any more foolish than you already do."



The point I make here is that you seem to think its OK if the US does a number of awful and things because other countries do it too. You make mention of this in several postings over a number of issues, and you don't seem to think that the US has any greater responsibility than the lowest common denominator.

[DreamTone7]

HKRC - "The point I make here is that you seem to think its OK if the US does a number of awful and things because other countries do it too."



Nope...but I can see that's the stance you were hoping I would take...since you've mentioned it more than once now. You asked about other countries that I know have used WP, so I told you a few. I will say that it's use IS widespread...though it's hard to name many other countries that have used it lately because, quite frankly, they've all been sitting behind a shroud of peace that America, to a large extent, has provided for them. Methinks that's changing now.



But as far as "awful" is concerned...it's war, Deb. It's not as if we were firing at civilians, or even directly at insurgents...though that's certainly what leftist media would have you believe. It seems they were successful...at least with you.



You know, it never ceases to amaze me how much the US has done for this world, and how much criticism it takes from other countries for the way in which it does this. Perhaps you mean to suggest Deb that we should have let the Iraqi people rot? After all, they aren't your friends, and don't stand up for your causes, right?

Melody and Instruments for the soul...

[HKRockChick]

Its WAR??? you still harping on that old tired excuse "we had to go to war with Iraq because of 9/11????"



The US is letting plenty of other countries rot with vile dictators - nothing in it for em there.



Believe me, the US hasnt even begun to live up to its commitments to the world. In my opinion, it has gotten FAR more out of the world that it has given.

[Galmin]

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Galmin - "DU is used for it's density, DU shells are used for their mass (and it's capablity to cut through virtually anything)..."



Like the armour of a tank, perhaps?



Come on, Galmin...think before you type!

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Like armour of a tank, for instance. Yes. Had you read all I wrote it would be clear to you that my suggestion for usage did not exclude penetrating tankarmour. There are, after all, particularly designed anti-tank depleted uranium shells.



The identity of the contractor for the JDAM tail kit that guides the bombs is surely nothing that would already have influenced your opinion?

[DreamTone7]

HKRC - "you still harping..."



No, I'm stating a fact. You're providing all the music.





HKRC - "The US is letting plenty of other countries rot with vile dictators - nothing in it for em there."



Go back and read my post concerning agendas needing to be satisfied before going to war...there's far more to it than you consistantly seem to be able to remember.





HKRC - "Believe me, the US hasnt even begun to live up to its commitments to the world."



LOL! In whose mind? Who made you judge over all? Personally, I think it's high time the "world" started giving a little back to this country instead of just taking. But we're not like that...we don't keep score like some do. I'm sure we'll bail France out again if it comes to that...and any other country that gets in over its head. History always seems to repeat itself.

[DreamTone7]

Galmin - "Had you read all I wrote it would be clear to you that my suggestion for usage did not exclude penetrating tankarmour."



As a matter of fact, destroying tanks is its design purpose. It's relatively useless for much else...very little explosive capability.

Melody and Instruments for the soul...

[HKRockChick]

DT: "I'm stating a fact."



Now which fact would that be?



"Go back and read my post concerning agendas needing to be satisfied before going to war...there's far more to it than you consistantly seem to be able to remember."



So what are you saying, the iraq invasion was based on agendas???



DT: "We don't keep score like some do".

I sincerely wish y'all did.

www.globalpolicy.org/finance/index.htm



"I'm sure we'll bail France out again if it comes to that...

BTW, dyu you remember a time when France bailed your asses out??



"and any other country that gets in over its head."

if the agendas fit.

[Galmin]

Quote:

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Galmin - "Had you read all I wrote it would be clear to you that my suggestion for usage did not exclude penetrating tankarmour."



As a matter of fact, destroying tanks is its design purpose. It's relatively useless for much else...very little explosive capability.

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During GW1, 286 metric tonnes of DU rounds were shot (not counting anything from the Navy or the M60A3, M1A1 of USMC) and a whooping amount of 500 tanks in total was taken out through DU rounds. We either deal with real lousy succesrate here or DU rounds were used for other purposes aswell.



Did you know that there are DU Bombs designed to cut through 15 feet of fortified concrete? Some tank that.

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