| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Galmin
The King has spoken!
Joined: 30 Dec 2001
Posts: 1711
|
 Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: Monsanto, seeds, n' such |
 |
|
Quote:
Checkmate: "How many Iraqi farmers are going to be affected by this new order? None. There is not a single ‘protected’ variety of plant currently being sold or marketed in Iraq. In other words, this doesn't affect Iraqi farmers one iota."
Hence Checkmate dude's laugh.
"How many Iraqi farmers are going to be affected by this new order? None"
Not true. It may be thus that at the time being, there is not one single farmer affected by the 'new order'. However, it is quite impossible for the 'checkmate dude' to predict what is going to happen in the near future, especially as the new law (implemented by a commissary regime that are there to make minimum changes in law and only then to facilitate for the coming democratically elected regime and not to privatize Iraqi oil or meddle in restrictions concerning the domestic industry) is here to stay.
Quote:
Monsanto has long abandoned the Terminator
Indeed? They did develope the Terminator program right? the USDA patented it. Otherwise the US Patent 5,723,765 wouldn't even exist. As Arnold said in the first flick: "I'll be baaak", it seems this particular Terminator is coming back too!
------------------------------------
Canada backs terminator seeds
John Vidal
Wednesday February 9, 2005
The Guardian
An international moratorium on the use of one of the world's most controversial GM food technologies may be broken today if the Canadian government gets seed sterilisation backed at a UN meeting.
Leaked documents seen by the Guardian show that Canada wants all governments to accept the testing and commercialisation of "terminator" crop varieties. These are genetically engineered to produce only infertile seeds which farmers cannot replant.
.... the technology was condemned in the late 1990s by many African and Asian governments who called for a permanent ban.
--------------------------------------------
Quote from your link:
Quote:
It is likely that Terminator will kill the seeds of neighboring plants of the same species, under certain conditions. However, the effects will be confined to the first generation
Obviously. Ever heard of someone dead naturally reproducing at all?
Quote:
why not take the advice of Mark Dennis from the University of Texas and go a bit further into the underlying science? Why not mention the current research that reveals severe ecological and physiological problems, both extant and potential, with transgenic technology for agricultural purposes? Why not explain the very real differences between intraspecific selection and transgenic manipulation? Why not explain the simple concepts of resistance and natural selection for fitness based on that resistance? Why not explain why this is so alarming to traditional farmers and other critics of bio-engineered seed technology?
We have mentioned our concerns regarding several of these topics in this very thread!
You should read the thread instead of merely copying entire articles into it.
Edited by: Galmin  at: 2/14/05 21:58
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
ans
Joined: 15 Feb 2005
Posts: 441
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:42 am Post subject: . |
|
|
Checkmate Dude: "How many Iraqi farmers are going to be affected by this new order? None. There is not a single ‘protected’ variety of plant currently being sold or marketed in Iraq."
Galmin: "Not true. It may be thus that at the time being there is not one single farmer affected by the 'new order' . However, It is quite impossible for the 'checkmate dude' to predict what is going to happen in the near future."
"Not true?" Can you prove it's not true? Unless you're a psychic or a fortune teller it's just as impossible for you to predict the future as it is for checkmate dude. Checkmate dude thinks there's nothing to worry about. You think there is. Worry is a common condition. You can be scared about Terminator and be scared about any number of other doomsday scenarios simultaneously. Many people live in constant fear. Many others don't. Practicing Yoga helps manage fear. Coughing up your own solution to global famine would do wonders for your fear while advancing your stature in the world community.
And why say "It may be thus"? That makes it appear as if you're granting Checkmate dude the benefit of some doubt. If you doubt him, do some fact checking. I remember you once complained about the lack of fact-checking in this forum. Be part of the solution.
---------------------------------------------
"An international moratorium on the use of one of the world's most controversial GM food technologies may be broken today (Feb 9) if the Canadian government gets seed sterilisation backed at a UN meeting. "
"May be broken"? Was it broken it or not? Check those facts and get back to us on that, please.
------------------------------
"It is likely that Terminator will kill the seeds of neighboring plants of the same species, under certain conditions. However, the effects will be confined to the first generation"
Does this mean that should they develop, second generation Terminator seeds won't kill neighboring plants of the same species under any conditions?
Did you visit the Monsanto website? If so, did you find it educational to discover the good things they've done?
---------------------------------------------
"We have mentioned our concerns regarding several of these topics in this very thread!"
"You should read the thread instead of merely copying entire articles into it."
I'll ignore that discourtesy. I understand it's just your way. Might be the way of all fellows who think feelings of contempt are healthy. Practicing yoga usually clears that right up too. 
I read the concerns that were mentioned. All of them. Poetic hyperbole and 'leaked documents seen by the Guardian', and sci-fi scenarios with scary question marks at the end are not science.
-------------------------------------------------
"the IP owner can sue every farmer in the entire world."
(!!!!!)
"There will be no more natural seed."
(!!!!!!)
" Man has once again tampered with Gods work"
(!!!!!!!)
"is there a built-in timebomb in altered crops?"
(!?!?!!)
This reads like sensationalism and yellow journalism and potential song lyrics. Here, I'll do some:
Will North Korea hand off dirty bombs to insane people?!?!?!?
Are killer bees a threat to the world's honey crop?!?!?!?
Smallpox anyone?!?!?!?!
------------------------------
I'll leave you with this sci fi scenario:
Currently the US gene genies are using gene therapy to wrap HIV in another virus and send it
on a mission to kill cancer cells. It apparently works.
go.hotwired.com/news/medt...l/wn_ascii
Jai Guru Deva
Om
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DreamTone7
Joined: 20 Sep 2002
Posts: 2571
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:14 am Post subject: re |
|
|
answer - "Checkmate Dude: "How many Iraqi farmers are going to be affected by this new order? None. There is not a single ‘protected’ variety of plant currently being sold or marketed in Iraq.""
...you mean YET. It's called "paving the way"...and it happens all the time. And thanks to people who believe similarly to "checkmate dude", it works most of the time. Can I prove it will? No. Can you prove it won't? No. But there is now a law in place...seems like a start to me. After all, why make a useless law...unless it is intended to become useful in the future. Useful to somebody, that is...and for no ultimate good for the majority.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Galmin
The King has spoken!
Joined: 30 Dec 2001
Posts: 1711
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Galmin
The King has spoken!
Joined: 30 Dec 2001
Posts: 1711
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:07 am Post subject: Re: . |
|
|
Quote:
"Not true?" Can you prove it's not true? Unless you're a psychic or a fortune teller it's just as impossible for you to predict the future as it is for checkmate dude.
It is not a true statement. A true statement you can back up by facts. As a matter of fact(hehe), had you continued to read, you would have seen my remark about the checkmate dudes incapacity to foretell the future. Thanks for copying it and trying to use it on me.
Quote:
Checkmate dude thinks there's nothing to worry about. You think there is. Worry is a common condition.
No. Checkmate dude think he knows the future, I say he cannot know, you say: "how can you know that, are you psychic"?
Quote:
And why say "It may be thus"? That makes it appear as if you're granting Checkmate dude the benefit of some doubt. If you doubt him, do some fact checking. I remember you once complained about the lack of fact-checking in this forum. Be part of the solution.
I have no capacity to check what crops are being sold in Iraq, though considering the trade embargo on the country during Saddam from the invasion of Kuwait til pretty recently, it is highly unlikely that Genetically Modified crops were being sold there. Now, OTOH, no such restrictions exist!
Fact is that the checkmate dude makes statements about the future that he cannot possibly back up.
You know it, I know it. When I point that out, you suggest that I should check facts? 
Quote:
"May be broken"? Was it broken it or not? Check those facts and get back to us on that, please.
I don't really have to. You said the Terminator has long been abandoned. Here's an article from NZ that tells us that Terminator seed are still being lobbied. Ergo: it has not been abandoned. End of story.
Quote:
Does this mean that should they develop, second generation Terminator seeds won't kill neighboring plants of the same species under any conditions?
second generation Terminator seeds do not do much of anything, they are sterile!
It's their function!
Quote:
"We have mentioned our concerns regarding several of these topics in this very thread!"
"You should read the thread instead of merely copying entire articles into it."
I'll ignore that discourtesy.
It's not a discourtesy, it's a suggestion for you to partake in the discussion with your own views and words 'instead of pasting entire articles into the thread' (a link will be just as good).
It looks like it worked.
Edited by: Galmin at: 2/15/05 9:37
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ans
Joined: 15 Feb 2005
Posts: 441
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Galmin
The King has spoken!
Joined: 30 Dec 2001
Posts: 1711
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: Yet= "Up to the present time" |
|
|
Quote:
That makes no sense. First you imply I haven't seen your remark, then you thank me for copying it? How could I have copied it without seeing it?
I implied that you didn't read my remark. I am sure you saw it, how else could you have copied it?
Quote:
Checkmate dude was pointing out that there is not a single ‘protected’ variety of plant currently being sold or marketed in Iraq. Galmin responds that it's true for the time being. So for the time being it's true that no Iraqi farmers are going to be affected by the new order. Thanks for clearing that up.
Not so fast ...
'Checkmate dude' said : Quote:
"How many Iraqi farmers are going to be affected by this new order? None. There is not a single ‘protected’ variety of plant currently being sold or marketed in Iraq. In other words, this doesn't affect Iraqi farmers one iota."
As I said before, this is not a true statement. It is completely impossible for checkmate dude to foresee what is going to happen in six months, let alone six years. To laugh the effect of a law off that is going to be around for a long time and base the argument on a momentary study is dishonest to the topic discussed.
As Dreamtone7 says: "...you mean YET"
Quote:
Actually I said Monsanto abandoned the Terminator,
Agreed
Quote:
meaning so far as I can tell from visiting their website there's no R&D going on.
Well, Monsanto doesn't have to research or develope anything. The USAD holds the patent and can decide to let any company of their choice R&D the Terminator program.
Quote:
Did you visit the site?
Yes.
Quote:
Do you really think IP owners are going to sue every farmer in the world?
No. It suffices to me that they could. An option for a rainy day or a bad year.
Quote:
Do you think there will be no more natural seed?
Let me put it this way: we have successfully killed off a multitude of varities already and the numbers of varities keeps shrinking every year. With a situation where half of the worlds farmers cannot afford to buy GM seeds but their crops being in danger of cross pollenation from GM seeds with strong traits, natural seed will have a tough time to survive. (Well, if you're Checkmate dude, crosspollenation is never going to happen....at least not before GM products are introduced  )
Quote:
Do you think successful attempts to use gene therapy to wrap HIV in another virus and send it
on a mission to kill cancer cells is 'tampering with God's work?'
GM in medical research to heal otherwise fatal conditions is commendable and should be encouraged. It can hardly be compared to the agricultural GM where contamination from GM gene on perfectly normal natural crops is an issue.
Edited by: Galmin at: 2/15/05 15:39
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ans
Joined: 15 Feb 2005
Posts: 441
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:38 pm Post subject: and so on |
|
|
Checkmate dude: There is not a single ‘protected’ variety of plant currently being sold or marketed in Iraq. In other words, this doesn't affect Iraqi farmers one iota."
Dreamtone: "Yet"
Agreed.
---------------------------------------------------
Galmin: "I implied that you didn't read my remark"
Erroneous implication.
--------------------------------------------------
Galmin: "Now, pollen is airborne and eventually you won't be able to save your own seed."
In 2001 the court decided that "a farmer whose field contains seed or plants originating from seed spilled into them, or blown as seed, in swaths from a neighbour's land or even from germination by pollen carried into his field from elsewhere by insects, birds, or by the wind, may own the seed or plants on his land even if he did not set about to plant them.
Under this ruling it appears that a farmer is not liable for infringement if a patented gene is transferred into his crops by chance and it does not confer a significant advantage on him. For example, if he simply sells his crop without saving any seed, he would not violate the patent and he can pocket whatever money he makes from a crop.
Monsanto evidently agrees. "We didn't introduce the technology so we could go out and trick farmers and catch them and sue them for patent infringement," a Monsanto spokesman told Mother Jones last year. "What our concern is that if we have someone who purposefully plants the seed to create a competitive advantage."
The fact of the matter is that worrying about farmers infringing on patented genes may just be a transitory problem since U.S. farmers and farmers in other countries with sensible biotech regulations are rapidly adopting genetically enhanced crops. Increasingly, they are finding that the advantages offered them by biotech crops outweigh any costs associated with licensing agreements and the requirement to purchase new seed every year.
Ronald Bailey (rbailey@reason.com) is REASON's science correspondent.
-------------------------------------------------
Galmin: "Well, Monsanto doesn't have to research or develope anything. "
Realistically speaking, in order to stay competitive in a free market, they do.
_______________________________
Quote o you really think IP owners are going to sue every farmer in the world?
Galmin: "No. It suffices to me that they could."
I honestly don't understand what you mean by that. Could you kindly elaborate? I mean, you "could" jump off the Eiffel Tower. Your own government "could" introduce legislation to ban the public appearance of women without headscarves. A meteorite "could" obliterate all life on Earth. "Could" expresses possibility. Virtually anything is possible. But "possible" doesn't mean "probable"; the two are not even closely related.
---------------------------------------------------
Galmin: "natural seed will have a tough time to survive."
Speculation. You have no way of knowing how natural plant life will adapt. (eg. evolution)
-------------------------------------------------
Galmin: "GM in medical research to heal otherwise fatal conditions is commendable and should be encouraged."
Agreed.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Galmin
The King has spoken!
Joined: 30 Dec 2001
Posts: 1711
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: and so on |
|
|
Quote:
Speculation. You have no way of knowing how natural plant life will adapt. (eg. evolution)
Adaptation and evolution is two different bottles of beer.
Quote:
Galmin: "No. It suffices to me that they could."
I honestly don't understand what you mean by that. Could you kindly elaborate?
Love to. 'They could'='available option'. Who is going to determine when seeds are crosspollenated or stolen? By 25% contamination of a farmers seeds? 50%? 75% 100%?
Sturdy seeds with strong traits have a way of spreading.
As the earth is not limitless, seeds with weaker traits will have to make way.
Quote:
In 2001 the court decided that "a farmer whose field contains seed or plants originating from seed spilled into them, or blown as seed, in swaths from a neighbour's land or even from germination by pollen carried into his field from elsewhere by insects, birds, or by the wind, may own the seed or plants on his land even if he did not set about to plant them.
Under this ruling it appears that a farmer is not liable for infringement if a patented gene is transferred into his crops by chance and it does not confer a significant advantage on him. For example, if he simply sells his crop without saving any seed, he would not violate the patent and he can pocket whatever money he makes from a crop.
1) what court?
2) farmers save seeds, it's an ancient tradition of common sense. What is the ruling for a farmer who save all his seeds, including that what is contaminated? If he want to save all natural seeds, how can he tell the contaminated from the natural apart? 
Quote:
The fact of the matter is that worrying about farmers infringing on patented genes may just be a transitory problem since U.S. farmers and farmers in other countries with sensible biotech regulations are rapidly adopting genetically enhanced crops.
Wonderful. "Sensible biotech regulation"! 
Do you think natural seeds are not at all endangered?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ans
Joined: 15 Feb 2005
Posts: 441
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Galmin
The King has spoken!
Joined: 30 Dec 2001
Posts: 1711
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ans
Joined: 15 Feb 2005
Posts: 441
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Blocked registrations / posts: 159611 / 0 |
MyMp3Board.com FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups
Register
Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in 
Edited by: