Dismayed Americans contemplate Canada

NRKofOver · Joined: 07 Sep 2002 Posts: 505

Guido's Dad, you correctly state that the vast majority of the US is neither conservative or liberal (at least on the extreme's of what that means), but you miss a very important element of economics as well. We are neither socialist or capitalist, but neither are most other nations.

Canada is as capitalist as anyone. They lean more towards socialism rather than capitalism, but at this point, the US leans more towards socialism than capitalism. We have 40 hour work weeks, mandated maternity/paternity leave, workmens' compensation for on the job injury, standards of safety for all workers, structures to insure companies can't corner a segment of the market and become a monopoly, minimum wage, redistribution of wealth at tax time, all of these are socialist ideals, not capitalist ideals.

I'd love to hear your examples of true capitalism in America that doesn't exist in most other technological nations. I don't think they exist. Capitalism in this country is given lip-service, it's an ideal we pretend exists, but it doesn't. And for good reason, capitalism sucks. Just look at the economic realities for the vast majority of Americans from the mid-1800's industrial revolution through the early 1900's when reforms were passed insuring capitalist assholes couldn't exploit the average person.

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Galmin · The King has spoken! Joined: 30 Dec 2001 Posts: 1711

Quote:
Marxist canada

Eh?

questionnaire · Joined: 29 May 2003 Posts: 640

.... I keep telling you that you're not dealing with rational people capable of any critical reflexivity. You're dealing with believers. You are wasting your time. Market capitalism is based on the principle of constant economic growth and expansion, but that is now reaching an ecological, social and cultural dead-end. It is a cul-de-sac. They are worse than lemmings, whose sel-imposed instinctual cull at least has an objective survival purpose. The European Enlightenment philosophers taught us that for humans to survive and prosper in freedom they must develop the self-critical qualities required to deal with it. This leaves us with a disarmingly simple syllogism: survival in freedom depends on rational criticism; market-capitalist America is run by believers who avoid rational criticism; these believers will not survive long in freedom. Q.E.D.

NRK - if we allow these believers to impose their market-capitalist system across the globe and destroy all regulatory or oppositional balances, very soon there will be nowhere left to which you can make your esape.

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

"The Capitalists", be who they may, know it is a dead end.......but with their greed and lust for power, they just don't care about tomorrow anymore. This was not the case 50 years ago.

questionnaire - "if we allow these believers to impose their market-capitalist system across the globe and destroy all regulatory or oppositional balances, very soon there will be nowhere left to which you can make your esape."

Too late....none shall escape. It is what we choose to do in light of this that will determine our happiness and, ultimately, our fate.

questionnaire · Joined: 29 May 2003 Posts: 640

... the stringent principles of market-capitalism give us no choice; the market's logic determines our fate. Jim Simmons, Bush energy adviser and CEO of the world's largest energy investment bank, Simmons and Co. International, has just revealed the true picture of the world's impending energy crisis, www.fromthewilderness.com

It is quite remarkable that a person who up to now has been a committed capitalist should do this, so the situation must be very serious indeed. The recent blackout in America was the result of de-regulation cutting out the excess capacity needed to handle surges in demand. The problem is that the potential demand in an expanding economy based on the material 'quality' of life will deplete energy resources very quickly, leaving the West's energy-dependent economies extremely vulnerable indeed. Eventually, it will mean that the term 'strength' will be re-defined in the global order.

NRKofOver · Joined: 07 Sep 2002 Posts: 505

regarding the blackout, George Will said it quite well, and I paraphrase:

The American people don't care about local or regional control, they don't care about deregulation, they only care about having reliable electricity.

Thinking about the long term elements of a stable and secure society requires strict regulation on capitalist ideals. Enron and World.com and the blackout didn't happen because there were controls, they happened because some idiots believe that, left to their own devices, businesses will set a voluntarily level of high standards that others will follow. And that amazes me, history has shown forever that many (possibly most) businesspeople will behave in the most unethical ways for the almighty buck. Capitalism is as much a failure as Communism is, and the people who find a middle ground with trade, development, growth and concerns for humanity and our world will find success. Everyone else will soon disappear.

One of my favorite things lately is Americans who bitch about the 'socialist' countries in Europe, but just look at the dollar compared to the Euro. Something is going right in Europe, with their restrictions, with their concerns for people and environment, something is working there economically more so than in the US and blind dogmatic adherence to capitalism (and a host of other things) is ultimately self-defeating.

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questionnaire · Joined: 29 May 2003 Posts: 640

.... I completely agree with you; no caveats needed.

If America does not move towards this model, not only will it go down in history as the Empire that never was but it will also become a very dangerous and unpleasant place to live in. The problem is that when settlers first moved in to this large continent they assumed that resources and opportunities to get rich were unlimited. Some people just can't get used to the idea that that is no longer the case, and they are the main obstacle to the cultural renaissance of America, which, of course, contains a good proportion of very decent people. As for my own country, the UK, I support the movement that advocates integration with Europe. Your description of the regulated 'social market' is the core principle of the English democratic socialism that I have supported all my life. I'm glad that some Americans realize that the business classes, who use the media to portray themselves as heroes, are largely a bunch of short-sighted, irresponsible, swindling scoundrels.

Steve H

NRKofOver · Joined: 07 Sep 2002 Posts: 505

Steve, I've always been an advocate of ethical capitalism which is essentially the same thing as voluntary socialism. I would prefer that the government not take care of the things that business could, but history has shown that without force, business rarely voluntarily creates a better world for their workers and the world. That's why we have so many laws regulating business. Even today, many businesspeople work so hard trying to find loopholes in the regulations instead of exceeding the expectations of the law and providing more for their employees and taking a proactive stance with their responsibilities to the world around us. These discussions would be wholly unnecessary if those who ran businesses worked harder to balance profits with healthy and safe workplaces, happy and healthy employees, and a focused concern on the environment. Unfortunately, more profits are more important.

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Rev9Volts · Joined: 10 Jul 2003 Posts: 1327

can anyone say "worldcom"?

anyone ever read what the "white man" did to american indians.

indians have a "shamanistic earth based relighion" hense in simple terms they were all witches.

RussCuss · Joined: 27 Aug 2003 Posts: 5

Well welcome to Canader - duh. Well you will love it here if you like the following:

A bunch of Muslim Immigrants told us on our news broadcast the Canada no longer belongs to us but to the world. Great to know. Geez we just lost the whole darn Country.

Another group set up a Palatine Checkpoint at a University in Montreal and checked for Jews. Told the Jews they found to get out of the Country. Gee, real Canadian spirit.

Our dear little Miss Minister of Culture gave an $80,000.00 (Yes that is the right figure) grant to a women rights activist from a BC University to give a lecture in Ontario. She told the assembled ladies that the only way to establish women's rights in Canada was to overthrow our Western Style of Government and embrace Islam. For this she got $80 thousand bucks and a standing ovation. What are we crazy or is it the world?

What other Country in the Western World would pay Social Service benefits (read Welfare) to a Canadian Muslim training with Al Quada in Afgastan - before you naughty Americans kicked the out. Now he wants to come back to Canada because someone (read USA) wants his hide for bombing an Embassy. Hey, the P.M. already got him out of jail once in the Middle East when wifey begged the P.M. to have him released. He was not really making bombs folks - just firecrackers. Probably the celebrate the 4th of July opps I mean 1st of July, Canader Day.

Now if you like guns and shooting be prepared to register them. All of them. Even that 150 year old musket with the lead filled barrell. They threatened to confiscate and destroy just such a weapon in the possession of a dear old 86 year old lady. It was a trophy gun handed down in the family for many moons. Also they demanded she take and pass a firearms registration course if she wanted a license to keep the gun. She never fired a gun in her life. Can you imagine an 86 year old lady learning to fire a musket?

Welcome to Canada.

Galmin · The King has spoken! Joined: 30 Dec 2001 Posts: 1711

Quote:
Now if you like guns and shooting be prepared to register them. All of them. Even that 150 year old musket with the lead filled barrell. They threatened to confiscate and destroy just such a weapon in the possession of a dear old 86 year old lady. It was a trophy gun handed down in the family for many moons. Also they demanded she take and pass a firearms registration course if she wanted a license to keep the gun. She never fired a gun in her life. Can you imagine an 86 year old lady learning to fire a musket?

If this is the worst case scenario when implementing a registration for guns then it's worth the inconvenience.

NRKofOver · Joined: 07 Sep 2002 Posts: 505

I actually think that every single country in the world is going to have problems, yep, even Canada. The topic really isn't about Canada being perfect, it's about the US being much less that what most people believe it is. If people believe that moving away to Canada or Europe is a good alternative to living in the US, then we should all be concerned about the country that we live in and have helped create. Change is good and looking at the positive elements of other nations can help us make the US a better place to live.

I actually believe that the US can be the greatest nation in the world and if I didn't I would leave. But all Americans have to recognize the faults before we can become better.

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questionnaire · Joined: 29 May 2003 Posts: 640

.... has a murder and serious violence rate that is a tiny fraction of the USA. No amount of blather and rhetoric can alter that axiomatic fact.

NRKofOver · Joined: 07 Sep 2002 Posts: 505

Steve, that's always been my point in these discussions. Just look at negative elements of society - from drug use to number of prison inmates to teenage pregnancies to violent crime and on and on - the US is the leader in nearly every category in comparison to other technologically advanced nations. Americans need to ask ourselves why instead of continually descibing this country as 'great'. It's not that great and that needs to be seen first, regardless of what problems other countries may have. We have more than enough of our own problems to keep us busy for a century. But no one seems to care because so many are blinded by idiotic dogmatic nationalism that precludes making sense of our own chaos.

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Why do you want to know · Joined: 05 Dec 2003 Posts: 2

Looks like you "socialist intellectuals" are taking it real personal even going as far as calling capitalists (you really want to say Americans but instead you want to hide behind a mask of self righteousness) greedy, stingy..etc. Hey I got an idea my brilliant socialist crew, why don't you show how really intelligent you are or how really culturally elite you are by adding some curse words in there. Or even better show how much better you are than us stingy Americans, by starting up entire threads that do nothing but bash capitalism or America. And for the love of Mike, please stop trying to take a @#%$ all over a thesaurus whenever you want to just puke something out...You don't fool nobody. If you were really an elite of society, you would be doing and not posting on an internet board.