Ron and the neo-con gang claim the know the truth ...

questionnaire · Joined: 29 May 2003 Posts: 640

.... yet if you read through their posts and check their credentials they have no inside information, no reliable sources and no academic or journalistic credentials.

Check through their posts and notice how they claim to be looking for 'objective facts' to form their opinion and all the 'objective facts' they find neatly support their own ideology? Transparent, fellas, I'm sorry.

HKRockChick · No More Peas! Joined: 25 Nov 2003 Posts: 1513

by an all american... Neal Starkman, who lives in Seattle...

www.commondreams.org/views04/0107-08.htm

Published on Monday, January 5, 2004 by the Seattle Post-Intelligencer

The S Factor Explains Bush's Popularity

by Neal Starkman

Millions of words have been written as to the motivations of voters. Particularly in close elections, as in the 2000 presidential contest, pundits and laypeople alike have speculated on why people voted for whom. The exit poll has been a major tool in this speculation.

But the speculation misses the mark by far. It's increasingly obvious, for example, that none of the so-called theories can explain President Bush's popularity, such as it is. Even at this date in his presidency, after all that has happened, the president's popularity hovers at around 50 percent -- an astonishingly high figure, I believe, given the state of people's lives now as opposed to four years ago.

What can explain his popularity? Can that many people be enamored of what he has accomplished in Iraq? Of how he has fortified our constitutional freedoms with the USA Patriot Act? Of how he has bolstered our economy? Of how he has protected our environment? Perhaps they've been impressed with the president's personal integrity and the articulation of his grand vision for America?

Is that likely?

Granted, there are certain subsections of the American polity that have substantially benefited from this presidency. Millionaires and charismatic Christians have accrued either material or spiritual fortification from Bush's administration. But surely these two groups are a small minority of the population. What, then, can account for so many people being so supportive of the president?

The answer, I'm afraid, is the factor that dare not speak its name. It's the factor that no one talks about. The pollsters don't ask it, the media don't report it, the voters don't discuss it.

I, however, will blare out its name so that at last people can address the issue and perhaps adopt strategies to overcome it.

It's the "Stupid factor," the S factor: Some people -- sometimes through no fault of their own -- are just not very bright.

It's not merely that some people are insufficiently intelligent to grasp the nuances of foreign policy, of constitutional law, of macroeconomics or of the variegated interplay of humans and the environment. These aren't the people I'm referring to. The people I'm referring to cannot understand the phenomenon of cause and effect. They're perplexed by issues comprising more than two sides. They don't have the wherewithal to expand the sources of their information. And above all -- far above all -- they don't think.

You know these people; they're all around you (they're not you, else you would not be reading this article this far). They're the ones who keep the puerile shows on TV, who appear as regular recipients of the Darwin Awards, who raise our insurance rates by doing dumb things, who generally make life much more miserable for all of us than it ought to be. Sad to say, they comprise a substantial minority -- perhaps even a majority -- of the populace.

Politicians have been aware of this forever; they cater to these people. They offer simplistic solutions to complex problems. They evade directed questions with non-sequiturs. They offer meaningless, jingoistic pap instead of thoughtful policy. And these people, the "S" people, eat it all up with a ladle.

I don't have a solution to this problem. To claim I did would belie my previous arguments. But I do have some modest suggestions that might provide a start for discussion: an intelligence test to earn the right to vote; a three-significantly-stupid-behaviors-and-you're-out law; fines for politicians who pander to the lowest common denominator and deportation of media representatives who perpetuate such actions.

It's well past time that people confront this issue, no matter who's offended. We are on the way to becoming a nation of imbeciles. I'm certain that a plethora of "George W. Bush" jokes is already being circulated in every capital of the world. We can stop this sapping of our national integrity but we must do it soon, lest the morons become the norm and those of us who use our brains for more than memorizing advertising jingles are ourselves ostracized from society.

Let's start talking. Let's bring the S factor out of the closet and into the daylight where we can all see it, gulp at its hideousness and finally make serious attempts to bring it to bay.

Neal Starkman lives in Seattle.

bbchris

yet if you read through their posts and check their credentials they have no inside information, no reliable sources and no academic or journalistic credentials.

Hi Steve! I enjoy reading different points of views from people all over the world. I sense that you don't enjoy the same as myself.

Perhaps your beliefs are holding you back? I hope I don't offend you by saying that but it's something I've learnt myself recently.

I was choosing not to speak to people who didn't agree with my beliefs, and instead of my peer group increasing in quality; my world became smaller and smaller. I would hate anyone else to have that experience.

If you feel you are the only person to know the truth; the first thing to do is build rapport with others so that you can easily spread the truth. It is indeed the only way. I wish you best of luck Steve.

Seismic Anamoly · Joined: 22 Aug 2002 Posts: 3039

Amen.

questionnaire · Joined: 29 May 2003 Posts: 640

Y'know, Chris, you're a nice person, but you're very young and you don't know a lot yet. You're also quite naive, as anyone who would pay money to a business and personal development guru - a charlatan, of course - has to be. You also constantly get caught hook, line and sinker for the manipulative flattery and politeness that you get from these smarmy 'red-blooded' Americans on this board (they are red-blooded, but unfortunately their red blood doesn't seem to carry much oxygen to their brains). However, unlike the Three Musketeers here, you do have a brain and you are capable of learning. You see, Chris, it's not the size of my world but the quality of it that concerns me.

Much as I like you, I don't trust your politics. I think you've fallen for the right-wing doctrine and you confuse 'freedom and democracy' with the freedom of big business people to go around the place exploiting people and getting rich, and therefore I oppose you. I have a lifetime of sytematic learning behind me - which means I've heard and considered all the arguments and I made my political decisions a long time ago. I can tell by the sources you quote that you are nowhere near the position of having heard all the arguments. My advice to you is to chuck all that Robbins rubbish in the bin, stop clicking around unregulated websites and read Chomsky's 'Hegemony or Survival'. If I'm picking up your politics wrongly, please tell me - the problem is that you never really reveal them. Which side are you on, Chris?

I oppose people like Ron and his gang spreading deadly neo-con lies around the globe. It is pointless discussing anything with them, they are simply unthinking subjects of their own mainstream culture. So I'm not going to waste time being polite or answering their threads. All I'm going to do is post on this board what I consider to be the correct interpretations of current world events and leave the readers (i.e the few that Ron and his gang haven't already driven away) to decide for themselves.

No time for contrition or vacillation. US military and CIA intervention since 1948 has been responsible for over 40 million deaths, and we stand on the brink of a global war. That's more than Stalin and Mao put together. Visit Vietnam or Nicaragua and see for yourself the devastation that has been wrought on these countries. It will take Nicaragua 50 years at 5% growth per year to achieve the quality of life that they had under the Sandanista government before Reagan's CIA funded Contras wrecked the place. Isn't it odd that a global war looks more likely now that the Cold War is over, the Soviet Union has collapsed and the global balance of forces has been destroyed? Now, with nobody to oppose them, these acquisitive imperialistic bullies think they can do what they like.

Now, you can ban me, report me to the FBI or do what you like, I don't really care. Just read the book. Please.

Seismic Anamoly · Joined: 22 Aug 2002 Posts: 3039

Will readers of this board please note;

Mr. Hall Is One Sick Puppy

And that ain't no Misinformation.

That's a Fact.

Edited by: Seismic Anamoly at: 7/4/04 14:24

bbchris · Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: OK Chris ...

Hi Steve! Thanks for your very sweet character assessment of me. I'm grateful that you come here and post your point of view. You have to remember it is your point of view. Doesn't necessarily mean you are right.

I've been watching "Bullsh**" a series on DVD by Penn & Teller today and I bet it would titillate your palate!

My politics? Why would you want to know my political leanings? Just curious.

Again I mention the building rapport with someone - you need to work on that element to get more quality in your life, Steve.

I personally think telling someone they are young and foolish and to discard their beliefs to read a book you recommend isn't going to succeed much of the time. What do you reckon?

Or perhaps this was the way it was in your family? Your views/beliefs were dismissed and you were told what to read and focus on? Of course that is none of my business and there's no need for you to answer. I'm merely stating it to give our other readers a more rounded observation.

Wishing you all the best but I'm afraid I don't have time to ban you, goodness knows why you want the FBI involved - just seems I was quite correct in my observation that you have that slightly dramatic streak in your personality!! Brilliant that you can put it to use on stage!

questionnaire · Joined: 29 May 2003 Posts: 640

Chris, my life is full of quality and success. I got where I am today, a high-salaried academic with two book contracts who is regularly invited to speak all over the world (have to turn most of them down, I'm sorry to say) by being exactly how I am. Right near the top of the game. I have a large circle of friends, most of whom I have known for over twenty years, and I get on fabulously well with my workmates. I celebrated 22 years of marriage last night, and I have fantastic relationships with my son and daughter. I'm also a musician with a label deal, a selling album and the reputation as #1 guitar player for a range of working club and function bands (ask my pilot friend John, who e-mailed you the other day) in an area with a 2 million population. I charge at least £100 a gig, and they pay it.

How much more quality and success do you want me to have, Chris? I don't need business gurus and snake-oil salesmen to give me advice. If Robbins gets into trouble with his conscience one day (I doubt it somehow) tell him to contact me and I'll show him how to lead a better quality of life - and I won't charge him anything, because that would make me feel guilty and lower my quality of life. :aua

Oh, the FBI thing is not my sense of the melodramatic. Seismo reported me. Ask him.

I don't mind you asking about my family, because I was talking about it the other night amongst friends. In fact my parents were apolitical and non-religious, although I had a sneaking suspicion they voted Labour at least once.

Now to the crux of the matter: "I personally think telling someone they are young and foolish and to discard their beliefs to read a book you recommend isn't going to succeed much of the time. What do you reckon?"

Over the months I have seen you fall for flattery and become the victim of your own youthful insecurity. You will respond to people who stroke your ego, not because you are egotistical but because you are insecure. That's how people like Robbins operate, they place you at the centre of the world and you love it: then, having opened you up, they get inside your head. Our red-blooded American friends here use the same technique, except they're not as skilled as Robbins.

Me? Well, I'm the opposite - like Socrates, I'm old and ugly and I don't flatter you or stroke your ego, but I chide you and patronize you and tell you to abandon most of your beliefs and look at the world afresh, with cold hard rationality. I'm not going to keep on telling you how beautiful or talented you are or how successful you can be. You're good looking, but so are thousands of other women, and your music could be improved. I promise you nothing. Not even respect, or success, or wealth or even increases in 'quality of life' (whatever that means). There'll be no quick-fix, no feeling good and no ego-stroke. Only hard-work and self-criticism. But on the other-hand, I charge you nothing - I don't want your money, or attention, or flirting, or sex.

Think about it, Chris. Who do you trust?

The Project for the New American Century is real. Read the book:

Hegemony or Survival

questionnaire · Joined: 29 May 2003 Posts: 640

.... don't take my word for it. Here's a review from an American citizen. There are lots of intelligent people in America, they just don't come on this board very often. :aua

.

"***** Superb Scholarship, Impeccable Research, November 21, 2003

Reviewer: leftizm (see more about me) from United States

Noam Chomsky has done it again. With his latest book, "Hegemony or Survival, America's Quest for Global Dominance," Chomsky presents a thorough, meticulously-researched indictment of prevailing American foreign policy - a policy which, as Chomsky correctly observes, is sure to lead to disaster for not only the United States, but ultimately, the entire world. Chomsky vividly illustrates the great alarm that is now pervasive even among the American foreign policy establishment as it struggles to come to terms with an administration that has so recklessly endangered American national security through its single-minded focus on securing a global "Pax Americana." As far-fetched as these claims may sound to many, Chomsky's documentation is irrefutable, and his research impeccable. Chomsky provides an even-headed critique of our current course through a rational examination of the frightening consequences that are sure to follow."

bbchris · Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 1:28 am Post subject: Re: Ok Chris ....

Quote:
Chris, my life is full of quality and success. I got where I am today, a high-salaried academic with two book contracts who is regularly invited to speak all over the world

Hey we're honoured to have you at Mymp3board.com then! Where you get the time to post several threads here I don't know. I'm impressed with your time management.

Your first paragraph mentions how much you are worth (to you) I'd rather hear about your contributions to mankind rather than your boastings.

You may be very clever Steve and have achieved a high standard in your career but you still have a thing or two to learn about rapport. It's absolutely nothing to do with sex or flattery! Seriously. To make fun of others is ignorant and arrogant and achieves nothing. Correct me if I'm wrong but you've not achieved anything on this political board since you started posting. What is your purpose of posting here? :dunno

RonOnGuitar · Joined: 08 Jan 2003 Posts: 1916

It seems you doth protest too much, Steve. That is, what you say ("I'm not unhappy with my lot in life, really, really I'm not") does not jive with your actions.

It truly seems you are, at best, experiencing an emotional/intellectual "inner civil war", projecting self-disatisfaction and feelings of inferiority on anyone who does not share your views. While it's possible that everyone in the world living outside of your circle is "young, niave, stupid, lying, evil, conned, naive ..", degrading insults ad finitum, the probability of that being the case in reality is so very,very small that the odds are incalcuable.

Aside from whatever personal issues are going on, it's my opinion that your logic skills just don't hold up under cold scrutiny. You don't fare well within the context of Socratic methodology, I believe when faced with contradiction you are unsure of what to do. But what is seen are the namecallings, rants, tantrums, insults. Being humans, we all tend to interpret things subjectively. That's normal, but only to the degree we don't believe the universe revolves around any one of us in particular.

So subjective reasoning has it limits, especially when it goes off into emotionalism. There is a helpful observation that reminds us to take a reasoned and objective look at ourselves:

"The unexamined life is not worth living."

The person who opined that bit o' wisdom? A fellow named Socrates.

By way of illustration of the inherent intellectual problems of investing effort into mixing personal obsession with a "proof":

I notice you failed to give attribition to the source of the "American's view" you copy & pasted, for you it was important that the source seemed to validate your credentials and viewpoint.

Not that I blame you for not citing from whence the indepth & haute brainy critique originated. I must say that the moniker attached to it, "leftizm", for some reason doesn't lend me to stand in awe. I'm hazarding a wild guess here that "leftizm" isn't pro-reviewer material just quite yet.

But the fact is, it's just someone who happened by Amazon to write a "customer book review" - as do thousands of "legend in their own mind" wanna-be reviewers. It's unknown if he even read the book or if he was, like you, just pasting/passing along the "party line" back & forth. This rather reminds me of the practice known as....how can I say diplomatically? "An ensemble of youthful males positioned in a circular fashion to engage in auto-eroticism".

While I don't gave a whit about what you're going on about here - much less the book - I find it curious, since your literary criteria is dependent on an anonymous Amazonian reviewer, that you missed something of a bit more tangible and substantive nature there. It is perplexing - unless one wonders if perhaps you went on a fishing trip for something that "backs you up"?

As I sez, I don't care about a book-personal belief here (and it's kinda funny, actually) but it took me almost all of ten seconds to come up with the below from another reviewer at Amazon.

I could print out both the reviews. They would, when accompianed by 2 dollars, buy me a good cuppa coffee (maybe two!) and a fine-tasting big muffin from the corner deli.

====================================

Interesting Title, Useless Book, February 28, 2004

Reviewer: A reader from Toronto, Ontario

"Hegemony or Survival" is very poorly written and argued. Facts are distorted or not put in context, the U.S and her Allies are constantly demonized, and the flow of 'logic' is poor. Look elsewhere for a serious critique of U.S foreign policy.

The book contains overwrought rhetoric that has no basis in fact: On p.4, Chomksy states that the U.S has a "contempt for democracy for which no parallel comes to mind". No parallel for contempt for democracy? According to Chomsky, it isn't Saddamn's Iraq, Iran, Cuba or North Korea that are so contemptuous of democracy, but the U.S. On p13, he quotes, without dismissing the charge, somebody as saying that the invasion of Iraq was the sort of crime for which people were persecuted in the Nuremberg trials.

The book misrepresents facts : On p14, Chomsky discusses the United States' "National Security Strategy" (He calls it "The Grand Imperial Strategy") and states that it recommends that the U.S undertake "preventative" war. (Chomsky highlights the word "preventative"). The document can be found in the White House's Website, and the word "preventative war" does not exist in it. Chomsky claims that this "Grand Imperial Strategy" demonstrates America's nefarious military and political goals; In reality, it stresses human rights, free trade, democracy, strategic alliances as well as the dangers associated with rogue states. If you are still inclined to take this book seriously, please do read the "National Security Strategy" document for yourself (Again, in the Whitehouse's Website) and compare it to Chomsky's description of the document.

The book (page 18 ) claims that the primary justification for the 1991 Gulf War was to keep Iraq from Saudi Arabia; This is not true. The main justification was Iraq's annexation of Kuwait.

Chomsky claims (p66) that the primary Cold War threat was the economic transformation of Communist countries so that they will threaten Western economic interests. In reality, the primary Cold War threat was the fact that Communism spread from WWII until the 1980s, threatened the West (Khrushchev: "We will bury you"), killed some 100 million people (See the book "The Black Book of Communism"), and enslaved millions more.

On p38, discussing the lack of protests in the US during the early years of the Vietnam war, Chomsky claims that the U.S government had plans to "Drive millions of people (In Vietnam) into what amounted to concentration camps". Based on what is this claim based? In fact, the closest thing to "concentration camps" in Vietnam and Southeast Asia were the various labor and "reeducation" camps that the Communists created.

Chomsky, of course, is very critical of the U.S for removing a dictator such as Saddamn. At the same time, he is critical of the U.S (p 48 ) of "instituting and sustaining stray regimes". At other times, he is critical of the U.S for ignoring the human rights abuses of rogue regimes (Such as Saudi Arabia). He also does not support sanctions against regimes such as Iraq. Thus, in Chomky's mind, the U.S cannot win whether it supports, sanctions, removes, or ignores these regimes.

There are numerous other such examples of flawed logic, dubious facts, and lack of context.

For a counterpart to Chomsky's one-sided depiction of U.S intervention in places like Central America and Vietnam, please read "The Black Book of Communism". I also recommend Mona Charen's book "Useful Idiots".

RonOnGuitar · Joined: 08 Jan 2003 Posts: 1916

Quote:
you still have a thing or two to learn about rapport

At the risk of raising Steve's blood pressure, an AR quote just came to my mind. "The quality of my communication is the quality of my life". May seem like an overstatement out of it's context like that, but the basic idea's there. Investing in successfully communicating ideas is more to be desired than "making a point" or "scoring points" in the long run.

I'm know you've heard that yourself, Chris. But what with you be so young, naive and vain, people just have to keep hammering things into your pretty, little, easily-swayed head! :wgrin

But when people compliment you on your diplomacy and positive attitude, rest assured they got it right.

Seismic Anamoly · Joined: 22 Aug 2002 Posts: 3039

Quote:
...you've not achieved anything on this political board since you started posting.

Oh....He's achieved one thing for damn sure, Angel....at least where THIS Cowboy is concerned.

He can say what he wants about America, Bush, Kerry, etc.; I couldn't care less, and it has nothing to do with the way I feel. Because of his insulting, arrogant, egotistical, haughty, high-and-mighty, overbearing put-downs of ME, he can rest assured that the day will come, whether here or there, when he's gonna look over his shoulder and get the shot he says he so dearly wants to try and "stuff me up an exhaust pipe".

My good friends, or stupid grunts, as the self-professed God would call them, in the 238th Air Support Operations Squadron and 186th Air Refueling Wing here in Meridian will see to that, if it be there. Hell, some of them have been reading his comments; they REALLY love the guy. :aua

What Mr. Hall needs to learn is that you should address people on the internet as you would face-to-face. If he insulted most, if not all, people in person the way he does here, he would have long since been hospitalized and wheel-chair bound....if he was lucky.

I imagine Northumbria is very easy to find.

Until then, Old Jackass.

questionnaire · Joined: 29 May 2003 Posts: 640

"But when people compliment you on your diplomacy and positive attitude, rest assured they got it right."

This again proves my point. Ron's simply asserting that smiling and being nice to people wins them over. But over to what?

Ron's synopsis of Chomsky's book is incompetent, elliptical and misleading, btw. Looks like he's been clickety-clicking on the internet again. Read it, Chris, and when you're finished you'll know why I'm haughty and arrogant when I address these people.

Just read Anamoly's post. He insults me, I insult him back, then he threatens to put me in a wheelchair. Perhaps he would like to come over here and 'liberate' Northumbria. They flatter you and call you Angel, but if you cross them or stand up to them they'll murder you. My tactic has worked, and now you know you are dealing with barbarians.

Anamoly's outburst has been sent to the board owner, The British Police and my solicitor. I have asked them to contact the board owner for his name and address, which they will then send to the relevant British customs and immigration authorities, and perhaps to his Commanding Officer.

Now I must go, Chris. Your board moderation is very poor. Allowing non-stop neo-con propaganda, lies and misinformation is bad enough, but allowing physical threats is just out of order.

HKRockChick · No More Peas! Joined: 25 Nov 2003 Posts: 1513

you copy and paste this for future reference. Seismo often edits out his posts afterwards. Chris has not even seen the half of how evil this person is. Chris if you had even read some of his posts to me you would think twice about who you protect. Thank god for Mike, who waded in and gave em a good tongue lashing.

:dunno