Go ahead...

[DreamTone7]

...tell me again how the media does not have an effect on the general populace, and is not used as a tool to push an agenda. Go ahead.



www.isratv.com/video/filmpmwadsl.asx



In a word, disgusting.



And why don't we see this kind of things on our TV? Think about it. Think real hard, if you must.

[Data Thieves]

So, what sort of agenda do you think that film is pushing?

[NRKofOver]

That is a very compelling piece of film.



But I know that the US isn't very different, of course we don't encourage 11 and 12 year olds to kill themselves for this country, we wait until they're 18 and then explain that one of the best things that they can do is die for their country, and if you have to kill people in the meantime it's alright, in fact, it's heroic. National pride is indoctrinated throughout the world, apparently people in extreme circumstances opt for extreme responses.



Since we're discussing the media, when was the last time you saw a show on national TV that expressed all soldiers are nothing more than killers? Our media and our government work quite diligently to create the exact opposite sentiment in our US society. We are to admire and respect soldiers. We are to 'deify' them when they 'sacrifice' their lives for this country. We love and admire and respect those who choose killing as a vocation. It's really not that different, it's just the extremism of one group of people in comparison to a different group of people who can't feed on extremism because of the comfort of our lives.



I'm guessing that if the US was ever invaded and our government overthrown, we would be quite comfortable as a society to infuse our kids with the desire to expel (through death) those who took away our expected lives.

My music for the disenchanted masses

[DreamTone7]

I think that there is an ENORMOUS difference between 12/13 and 18...and for the record, right now, we have no such requirements (to be in the military). If we went to war for some reason, yes, I imagine that we would...but it would be for freedom and not to take over land held by another people/country. Those children are dying for a peice of land. Pathetic. Also, our government and society do not (intentionally) teach our children to hate another race based on religious differences...or anything else for that matter. I generally think that you, NRK, give some thought to things before you post. But this last post of yours has really floored me. The willful destruction of children within a society has MAJOR psychological ramifications as to the nature of that society.

[NRKofOver]

From what I saw in the film, children aren't 'required' to become Shahaddah (sp?), they are encouraged through religious and political pressure. I too believe that such an approach is wrong and ultimately dangerous to their own nation.



As far as fighting over a piece of land. If it didn't matter then I think we should expect Israelis to just leave, that ends all the problems and no more dead kids. Obviously it matters to more than one side.



I agree with your final assertion completely. The willful destruction of children anywhere is appaling and should be condemned.



The gist of your original post didn't express that very well. The original post seemed more geared towards the question of utilizing the media for indoctrination. I suggested that our government and media utilizes the same tactics for the indoctrination of kids in the US. Of course the end results are quite different, we're not encouraging children to strap on bombs and kill people. But we are encouraging children to be nationalistic and to consider the possibility that in their future they may find it necessary to kill and die for their country and that this is a good thing. That was my point. Maybe it's not 'good' to die/kill for your country, but in the US it is expressed as a positive societal ideal. So I'm not surprised by the film in that respect.



If you want to know how extreme I am, I don't believe any adult has the right to indoctrinate their own children into any particular religious belief. I believe that's oppressive to children. So obviously I find the tactics the Palestenians use as abhorrent.

My music for the disenchanted masses

[DreamTone7]

Actually my post was along the lines of both the media and the specific message in Palestine. We are "indoctrinated" as well along the liberal lines that the US media follows. The method is similar, though the message is different from that in Palestine. But what is the same in both cases is a lack of understanding as to actually how large a role the TV plays in shaping our culture and beliefs. It has been said that the TV is a reflection of our culture...which may be true to some extent. But the result of exposure to it has resulted in a shaping effect as well...one that is growing in an increasingly disturbing direction from my point of view. The clips from Palestine serve to illustrate this effect in the extreme...possibly not as far from our own "indoctrination" that most would like to believe.



As far as your extreme is concerned, I find your point of view disturbing as well. You would choose to rescind your rights by allowing the government, ultimately (because they would be the enforcers), to decide what is and is not appropriate to teach children...assuming of course that you do not intend yourself to be the sole decision maker for the entire populace on the matter. What you view as religion I view as truth...so, in effect, I would be keeping the truth (the most valuable one, in my opinion) from the children (from my point of view). Granted we have different point of views on the subject of religion, but can you not see that parents MUST be allowed to decide what their own children should and should not be taught? I would not allow somebody else to make that decision for my children...it is part of the very problem found in that clip I posted a link to. Somebody there decided that it was OK to teach the kids to kill themselves...most likely not their parents. Perhaps now you can understand why I hold the TV with such abhorance. It is like telling your kids not to do drugs, but allowing the local dope-dealer to hang out in your livingroom...and in some cases the parents actually encouraging their kids, either directly or indirectly, to listen to him.

[NRKofOver]

Wow.



Two things. First of all, the media can't be 'liberal' based on your presumptions about the power of the media. If our children are being indoctrinated into the idea that dying for our country is 'good' then the media plays into that. Our media also enjoys expanding the concept that those in America who work hard will have success. As well, nearly every major media outlet in America, from newspapers to TV, believed that Clinton should resign the Presidency from his stupid behavior. That doesn't sound as 'liberal' as people like to profess. If there's one good thing about our media, they bring up questions, they try to find truth, they work hard towards creating a more informed populace, they most definitely challenge the status quo. I have never believed that our 'media' is liberal or conservative, I believe that objectivity exists in most major media organizations, but conservatives don't want objectivity, if you disagree with anything they say or believe then you are liberal. Conversely, the hard left does the same idiotic thing. Boring to me all the way around.



As far as my kid goes, you make the assumption that if I take 'indoctrination' out of her raising, then I'm allowing others to raise her. Terrible assumption. You have strong faith, belief and spirituality in a particular God and structure, your truth. I would love for you to come to a bar-b-que with me and my daughter and share that truth. If I've taught her anything it's the ability to think for herself. I don't care if she decided Christianity (or any other spiritual belief) is where she finds her personal strength. Believing strongly in Eastern philosophy, religion and spirituality, my only goal is a positive, healthy existence. How any one person achieves that is of little consequence. I'm quite different than you. I believe that my daughter has everything inside of her already to make her brilliant and amazing (and I think I helped foster those parts), I can't, even if I want to, make her believe anything. As a parent, I can only infuse her with the ability to discern information and come to a conclusion regarding that information. She leans towards Christianity right now and I have nothing but love and respect for her. Her relationship and connection with God is more important than religion, same thing with every single child who ever grows up on this planet. And I'm glad you brought up the drug reference. I have never taught my duaghter that drugs are bad. I have taught her only behavior and consequences. I have done nearly every illegal drug at some point in my life and I'm not f**ked up, I'm productive, kind, caring, giving, self-sufficient and capable of giving my daughter everything she could ever use in life. How could I possibly decide that she is incapable of living the same life I've lived? Interestingly, at almost 17 years old, she hasn't smoked, hates drinking, and has never done a drug. As well, our open conversations about sexuality have given her the strength to decide when it's best for her to engage in the activity. Not through mandate or rules or religion, but simply through love. I love her beyond comprehension and have high expectations of her choices in life. It doesn't mean she shouldn't/can't have sex or do drugs or be a Christian or a Muslim or a Jim Jones follower, it simply means that I believe I have given her all the tools to be a bright, functional, healthy, happy human being and my desires for her future remain in that same minimal vien. I want her to be bright, functional, healthy and happy. Outside of that I have no expectations.

My music for the disenchanted masses

[DreamTone7]

I'm glad your daughter is doing so well. But for every success story there is a tragedy because reasonable limits were not imposed. Every child is different.



As far as the media seeking the truth goes, I disagree. What they are seeking is hoopla...and if they have to severely bend the truth, or outright ignore some aspect of it in order to achieve that goal, they will quite often do it. I have spent time working for Aaron Spelling and Viacom in the past, and I will tell you that they are liberal to the core. They want to be able to do anything that they want, traditional morals and values be damned. They are constantly pushing the limits of what America will tolerate as far as traditional decency is concerned. (Remember Janet Jackson?...don't tell me it wasn't planned.) You see, when I say media, I am not limiting it to news and reporting. I'm talking about sitcoms, commercials, infotainment, etc. as well. Commercials are the worst because they attempt to play to our lowest common denominators...and thus lower our general level of thinking in the process. And it is these same companies that are always asking TV studios to "dummy-up" the content...for the exact same reasons. Baseness in TV sells...but what is really the cost? Some people think that they can filter out what they are exposed to...but the reality is that they are receiving multiple forms of stimulus simultaneously, when watching TV, in a fashion that makes this impossible to do. For everything that you say "I'm not buying that" to, there are three more that you already bought without knowing it.

[NRKofOver]

Maybe everything you say about TV is true for nearly everyone. But my question is that if you want some kind of standards regarding TV that insures a basis in 'traditional morals and values' aren't you wanting to decide how people are indoctrinated through the media? Right now we have choice, some people choose the most base element of entertainment available. Some choose programs with a bit more substance, some choose to turn the TV off. We have Christian stations (three in my city, all on 'free' TV), sports stations, educational stations, and on and on. So to me, right now is the best possible situation because we have massive choices. Don't watch what you don't like. I know that sounds too easy but I believe in individual choice, not mandate for control.

My music for the disenchanted masses

[DreamTone7]

Now, just so I understand this clearly, you want to have individual control as opposed to imposed limits on the television, but want the government (or its representatives) to limit what religious material is taught to children. Sounds a little like a double standard to me.



For the record, part of my gripe about the TV is because its "push" downwards comes in unexpected ways...such as with Janet Jackson or advertisements for "Striperella" during cartoon time after school, etc. If it was made clear before the game, for example, that this was going to happen at half-time, I would only be half as disgusted with it...but many families who have come to expect a certain standard in what most people believe is family broadcasting had no idea it was coming. Of course, if I am correct, the media would not want to tell anybody this because it would not have had the effect that they were looking for. People COULD have just turned it off. The other part of the problem is that people are largely unaware of the "dumbing down" of the populace...they just don't realize it's happening. And the media isn't about to inform them of that, either. With anything religious, you know it's coming...they don't sneak up on you and try to pull a fast one. Who and what they are is displayed clearly for all to see. They do not hide in the shadows, so to speak. BIG difference in approach.



So, what I am really saying is that I DON'T want people indoctrinated throught the media AT ALL...that's not their job OR their right/responsibility. And have you watched any TV lately? The few choices that we have that do not involve some sort of "indoctrination" are dwindling fast...there is very little left that I am interested in watching, and almost none that I would allow my child to watch. What do you let your child watch?

[NRKofOver]

Quote:

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but want the government (or its representatives) to limit what religious material is taught to children

---

Absolutely not. I said that I don't believe parents should indoctrinate their children with a particular religious belief. That's something I believe in but I definitely wouldn't suggest that the government make it illegal. I don't believe parents should turn their children into neo-@#%$ but if they choose to do that, it's their right. When it comes to teaching children, the parents have the right to damn near teach them anything and I support that, even if I disagree with what is being taught.



As far as TV, I don't watch a lot of TV, if anything PBS or sports. I watch a ton of movies and my daughter is a month shy of 17 and can pretty much watch whatever she chooses to watch, movies or TV. I don't know about her TV choices and I seriously don't care. Again, I have given her the tools to make good decisions in life, she knows the difference between fantasy and reality, the TV she chooses to watch isn't going to affect her very much, and if it does, she still has to deal with the consequences of whatever choices she makes in life, whether she is influenced by tv, video games, music, peers, etc.. As a parent, that's my only real concern.

My music for the disenchanted masses

[DreamTone7]

Sorry...somehow I thought that your daughter was younger.