Bin Laden offers Europe truce

[Galmin]

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Ironically, it was the US that saved Europe from Hitler in WWII

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Where is the irony? I am grateful for that the US saved us all from Hitler (a head of state turn into Dictator who in the years prior to the second world war developed the most sofisticated propagandamachine and the biggest and most well equiped army ever).

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...without our aid both before

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Yup. Without GM, Opel etc the German army wouldn't have been as strong as it was (lacking the Opel Blitz and crucial parts for the Messerschmidt). Without Standard Oil Germany would have had to find another manufacturer of Cyclon-B and another contractor for Auschwitz. Ahh there is the irony, I knew it was around somewhere.

[HKRockChick]

"BTW, my reference still applies...governments and people to this day still refuse to take lessons from history. We'll see... "



You are correct DT. It would seem that couldya-wouldya-shootya-dubya has not learnt anything. A-number one terrorist, he and his organisation should be on the world terrorist listing as well.



Instead of going after bloody osama he wasted all this time invading iraq, now he's blatantly sided with Sharon. How anyone can think he made the world safer is beyond me. Bush is a terrorist, terrorist, terrorist. So is Sharon. I hope history has some lessons for them before things get much worse for the rest of us.

[DreamTone7]

How is Bush making things bad for you, Deb?



...I mean other than raising your blood-pressure.



I do wonder what it is you will "talk" about should Bush not be re-elected? (Serious question.) Why not avoid the X-mas rush and get a head start?

[HKRockChick]

I didnt talk about Clinton... I liked Clinton. I know he did some underhand stuff, but he was a good statesmen, and very very smart and he didnt piss everyone off. And he DID do some good.



I'm praying bush loses so I'll have the time to complete my assignments for my masters degree.



And if you really need to know how he's making thing's bad for the rest of the world, well, you're a bit more insular than even I thought



Can you say "terrorist"?

[DreamTone7]

I said YOU...not the world. My point being that there are few people (relatively speaking) whose lives have changed significantly in one way or another. Tell me how YOU have suffered (leaving off the blood-pressure issue).



HKRC - "I hope history has some lessons for them before things get much worse for the rest of us."



You see, when you use the term "us", it implies ALL of us. I think that more suffering has been prevented by invading Iraq than caused...though I admit that the situation is far from over.



...and don't get me started on Clinton. I think he did some good things, too...but he has more in common with Bush than you know, or are at least willing to realize.

[HKRockChick]

How did iraq affect YOU for you to justify its invasion?

[HKRockChick]

Honestly, I dont need to justify what he has done to me personally to loathe him. What has Clinton or Perry done to YOU personally? I'm sure thats nothing compared to what the SOB has done to your or your country, but you dont really care about that do you?



but what happens in the US affects people's livihoods around the world. If you dont know this, then I'm sorry for you. My husbands business, my own savings, how my company is performing... a bad US economy affects the entire world, and dubya was responsible for the last 3 years awfulness. That plus not wanting to travel to places that one might have travelled to... for example the bali bombing has put that place off limits, similarly I will not travel to phuket either, or any place that might be a target for terrorists because they hate gb. He really has made these extremists hate the US and that puts us all in danger.



But even so, all of these are small compared to the enormity of what he has done to the world. The greed, the injustice. He is a downright criminal. So if you think my stress levels are something to be scoffed at, well, think again. My stress levels are VERY personal to me.

[DreamTone7]

I agree...loathing requires no justification at all. But if you loath Bush and not Clinton, there is either a lot you don't know, or your loathing is not based purely on the facts of the matter. Either/or.



...and for the record, I never scoffed at anything...including your stress levels. But what I did ask about is your level of suffering. The level of worry about companies and savings is tied to money. Since worry over money is a choice, I would say that you are at least in part responsible for your own suffering...if that is what you wish to call it. And when you can acknowledge how closely the US economy is tied to oil, you should have a little more respect for what Bush has accomplished...if not the method of doing so. You can't have it both ways, Deb.



Excuse me for saying so, but I believe an end to those truly suffering under Saddam is preferable to you're inability to fly somewhere in the world that the vast majority of people on the face of this earth could only dream about doing.



If you want to loath Bush, fine. Stand in line behind the rest of the world. But at least take a look at the global picture and collect ALL the facts if you intend to give support for your loathing openly. If not, just say you loath him and be done with it.



Peace

[HKRockChick]

you asked. I knew you'd pick on the money bit (because its plucking at straws and thats all you've got), but thats never been my driver at all. I just had to think of something direct and personal, because you asked if I was directly affected, and I have been. So have thousands of other people, because as they say, "if the US sneezes the world gets flu". But the fact is I DONT worry about the money, and I never said I did, so dont put words in my mouth. I do stress about injustices because I have experienced them first hand, and I do worry about danger to the whole world, the environment and the outbreak of a war because of a megalomaniacal administration in what is now unfortunately a superpower, but doesnt deserve to be because they have proven that they are totally irresponsible. That's what stresses me out. I do worry that there is a bunch of insular rednecks ready to foist their "freedom" on the rest of us who have seen the lawlessness and violence of it and DONT WANT it.



I dont need to experience direct loss to feel the pain of other people suffering because of him. He has invaded a country on false pretences, killed thousands of innocent people, thinks he is above the law, and encouraged state sponsored terrorism. and let me tell you it isnt bush alone, its his administration collectively. I truly believe that they are evil people.



Have you seen this:



www.newamericancentury.org/



So can you tell me how Clinton's administration is worse than bush's??? I asked that question before - how has Clinton directly affected YOUR life?



Guess what? None of your reasoning is based on any facts since you have shown time and time again that you have no in anything that dissagrees with your world view. We were telling you when in happened that powell and the rest had been caught out in their lies (like mid last year) and yet you refused to believe it. Only now that its appearing in all the news there do you recognise that there are actually no WMDs - or do you? You appear to be totally oblivious to whats happening in the rest of the world. I mean you didnt even know that the "west" was a term to describe more than the bloody US, for Gods sake. I think you havent a clue. I repeatedly told you about the depleted uranium and you wouldnt accept that either. Its like you have some sort of force field around you that wont allow facts and history to penetrate if it hurts your argument.



Go on, try and compare bush to clinton - tell us all what makes bush better.

[HKRockChick]

that someone needs to be PERSONALLY affected to be able to make value judgements??? I ask again, how has IRAQ affected YOU to want to invade it?



Can't you grasp that the world is bigger than the individual and you have to think beyond how something affects YOU personally??? That just shows how YOU think. From what I've seen of your posts DT, I dont think you can feel for anyone outside of your own country. I think the people of Iraq dont matter in your eyes so its ok if a few thousand of them die or are poisoned with the banned WMDs that your own president used on them (and yes Clinton and NATO used these in Kosovo I know, and I am pissed with that too). All that BS about saving them from Saddam doesnt work, because I believe that you and all the rest supporting bush couldnt care less if they lived or died in Iraq.

[DreamTone7]

I never said that anything has to directly effect me for me to be concerned...that was your assumption, and a bad one on your part.



All I was saying is that we are not ALL suffering (your words) because of Bush or anything he has done. Some are suffering, yes. And some are not because Saddam has been stopped. (Is it really OK in your eyes to allow Saddam to continue rather than stop him?) It is you who are making a value judgement in that your point of view requires that the lives of ones saved be not equal in value to the ones who have suffered. Your posts HAVE made it clear that you loath (your words again) Bush, regardless of anything that has been discussed here. I suppose you must have your own personal reasons.

[HKRockChick]

do we have to explain ALL over again WHY we loathe him? You really don't think he's done anything wrong do you?



I'm not wasting any more time educating you then. Why don't you just read some good international papers and get a little larger perspective. I'm done.



ta-ta



Oh peace and all the rest of it.

[HKRockChick]

except bullsh1t denials, clinton, kerry, saddam, everyone and everything else except the issue at hand - world leaders who lied, cheated and murdered. And you dont think there's anything wrong with that. you havent addressed this ONCE except to say that we all hate the US and thats why we believe that.



I felt I had to respond to what you consider "discussions" which you believe must actually be taken seriously.



But now i'm done.