The US government....

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

I understand what you are saying, questionnaire. We ALL as human beings have a propensity for violence that has existed since the dawn of our species.....long before the TV (or any form of visual cinema) was introduced. But as someone has already mentioned, the level of violence here in the US has only risen recently.....coincidently, it is with the first "TV generation" (those born in the early 50's, give or take a few years). Ever caught yourself looking at an auto accident....just to see how bad it was? Be honest, now! It this facination with the terrible that has been (right along with sex) used to "sell" TV, movies and music to a larger and larger degree as the years go by. How many movies have you seen where an obviously gratuitous sex scene has been added....one that has little importance as far as the plot in concerned? (If the movie even bothers to have one.) Violence and sex comprise a majority of movies today....at least here in the US. Right along with the glorification of children (the adults being pictured as somewhat dense in most sit-coms).

With a strong family unit and appropriate role models, the violence is, for the most part, kept in check. It is with the destruction of the family unit and the glorification of sex and violence that our children are exposed to that our violent tendancies have been gradually "unleashed". I'm afraid that in many ways the TV has become America's "culture".

So while I understand you questionaire, it is exactly that kind of rationalization that has been used time and again by media moguls to justify their irresponsible methods of making a buck. Just check out the local news in the US. Good news is not....bad news is. Rodney King was a prime example of the medias lack of responsible broadcasting. If they had not shown looters getting away with looting for a straight 3 hours, I guarentee that there would not have been a mass looting all over LA. Hispanics, who had no stake in the matter (they were not black), were the biggest looters of all. I know. I was there. Kids wheeling TVs (!) on stands that were taller than they were down Sunset Blvd. Grandmas with one VCR (!!) under each arm slipping away. Where were the cops? Right there....but the went right on by because there weren't enough of them to go around. They actually called out the National Guard because there were not enough cops. (Then) Mayor Bradley had, just the year earlier, slashed the police force from an already strained 1500 to a mere 700 officers! Stupid.

Poeple are violent already? You bet they are. But until the TV, the vast majority did not turn to the use of guns in the numbers that exist now. Violence was wrong, 50 years ago. Most kids (I used to be a High-School teacher) can get a gun within 24 hours, if they want one. Was this true 30 years ago? 20 years ago? Times have indeed changed. And although people have not changed (much), their behavior certainly has. What catalyst exists today that did not back then? The TV. How many people would allow a dope dealer to hang out in their house with kids, and tell their kids just to say "NO"?...this "dope dealer" does not sleep, does not stop to eat, has no remorse, cannot be reasoned with....sounds like the Terminator! TV does not reflect our high ideals....whatever they may be for a person. It reflects that which is base in all of us. Don't get me wrong....there are good shows. But they are becoming fewer and further between. And we, inundated by constant exposure, are not noticing. But heaven forbid we admit anything that might jeopardize our picking up that remote!

Sorry for the rant, but the TV (obviously) is one of my biggest "buttons".

questionnaire · Joined: 29 May 2003 Posts: 640

..... I'm sorry to be rude, it's not usually my style, but you really are just a guitar-twanging bumpkin. To save time, you tell me why you think the USA entered WWII and then I'll tell you what you need to know, using your ignorance as a platform.

You did not set Britain free, Ron, you attempted to make it more and more compliant with American investment strategies Ron - a form of dependecy, which you have also created with the nations you have destabilised since the 1950s. Wakey, wakey, Ron ......

As for anger, I have not displayed any in this thread. I deal in emprical knowledge and cold, hard analysis. I'm a professional, Ron, not a pontificating bar-room gobshite.

As for heavy lifting, well, with the obesity problem you have over there you obviously get plenty of practice - on each other.

As for nancyboys, well, Ron, I'm a 230lb former boxer. What was your sport? Sumo wrestling or pie-eating?

Orwell's 1984 was a political allegory based on Stalin's Soviet Union, not Britain. Oh dear ........

The relationship between the state and the population is much more complex than simple 'dependency'. I would have to take you through this from the beginning, Ron, from Hobbes' Leviathan and the social contract, but it's getting late here, y'know ....

Your description of other countries as 'unimportant and irrelevant' reveals the reason why the world is becoming just a little sick and tired of you, or at least of the dimension of America you represent. The very large number of intelligent Americans just don't want to be represented by people like you, Ron. I hope they win through. You're in big trouble if they don't.

As for envy, I seek a lifestyle far removed from yours. I couldn't possibly be envious of a nation with the highest murder-rate and the most appallingly dumbed-down culture in the West. You have nothing that I want, Ron, especially Britney Spears. I don't want your help, and the 'lot' that really needs improving is the American public education system - y'know, Ron, the one that you attended now and then .....

As for lessons, Ron, France, Germany and other nations have already learnt theirs. They don't go rampaging round the world invading other people's countries, they've grown out of that. Britain should be ashamed that it did not show similar good sense. Your lesson is yet to come, and it might be a hard one.

The only place you and Bush can lead us to is the realm of greed, stupidity and violence, Ron, and I won't follow you there. Hopefully, many others will make the same decision in years to come. After this WMD fiasco, Britain is unlikely to assist any more of your stupid escapades, Ron, and I'm quite pleased about that.

RonOnGuitar · Joined: 08 Jan 2003 Posts: 1916

You're a patient lad, DT. I tend to reject out of hand political/historical claims and conclusions based on one's movie viewing choices. :rolleyes

I'm picturing someone who, having seen a swords and sorcery movie, trys to maintain that becoming king/queen of England involves pulling a sword out of a stone or having a sabre tossed to you by some lass in a lake. :bigeyes

NRKofOver · Joined: 07 Sep 2002 Posts: 505

Dreamtone, I think that TV/Media can play a part in pushing people towards violence, but there are problems with using the media as some kind of root cause.

When Columbine happened I remember the tirades about Doom, Natural Born Killers, and Marilyn Manson and how those elements 'drove' them to mass murder. The reality is that millions of people have played Doom, seen Natural Born Killers, and listened to MM and haven't killed anyone.

I really don't know the answers to the gun violence in America, but it's bad and there isn't going to be a quick fix. I think you probably nailed it best when you said that the overall culture needs to change. Maybe a significant change in our cultural values would bring change to the way the media portrays life.

Read all about ME!

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

NRK - Just to clarify, I don't consider the media a "cause" as such....but I do consider it to be the #1 catalyst. The match that landed on the gasoline, if you will. Though I do agree that the gasoline had to first be there. But don't you agree that parents should teach their children not to play with matches?

questionnaire · Joined: 29 May 2003 Posts: 640

.... I was using the movies as examples of America's mediated self-image, the way it tries to understand itself through its cultural expression, not as concrete evidence of historical or political processes. Your picture of me just proves that you're not very good at picturing things, really, that's all. If you want me to continue this, Ron, you'll have to up the level, you really will ...

DT, you made a couple of good points, especially about the 'cult of youth' and 'media moguls'. This is a complex issue, so I'll answer later.

RonOnGuitar · Joined: 08 Jan 2003 Posts: 1916

Quote:
I'm sorry to be rude, it's not usually my style

No, actually it is. You'd really have to explain why anti-American hatred is any less "rude" than any other bigotry or prejudice. I've found that when people preface their personal statements with denials (e.g. "I'm not racist, *but*") , it's a safe bet thay are "protesting too much". I'm to the point and not at all given to PCness - real life is like that, y'know.

Quote:
you tell me why you think the USA entered WWII

Nice diversion attempt. But if you check, you'll see my point is that Americans saved the Brits from certain destruction at the hands of Hitler. If Britian had managed to survive the blitzkriegs and bombimgs, there would've been no guarantee your ancestors would have managed to escape the Nazi death camps and furnaces. At any rate, you're welcome; continue to enjoy the freedom Americans fought and died to give the UK.

Quote:
I deal in emprical knowledge and cold, hard analysis.

No, you're confusing movie reviews with "empirical knowledge". That is, you've exposed yourself only to fiction that you believe strengthens an existing prejudice. Analysis is a whole different animal.

It would seem - speaking in general - that Europeans very usually are not comfortable dealing with ungarnished facts and logic. Rather there is a search for anything that will justify an emotionally-devised belief. e.g. I tried explaining to one of the lads here that a belief without real world substance is no more than a fantasy. The claim was "but America violated US law when it liberated Iraq!". I can claim that Bob Dylan broke into my place and stole my alarm clock. I can write webpages making that claim. Or, as seems your preference , make the claim on TV as "proof". But I can't have Bobby arrested based on my fantasy, no matter how strongly I believe the fantasy. Learning to so seperate fact from the fictions - internal (emotional tendencies, prejudices) or external (webpages, action movies) - would be something that would really serve you well.

Quote:
I'm a 230lb former boxer

That's good. Now, much of the world just needs to learn to take care of itelf. Not expecting a continual handout and military bailouts. Not always calling the US for the heavy lifting (Liberia being the latest object of another UK/EU plea for help)

Quote:
Orwell's 1984 was a political allegory based on Stalin's Soviet Union, not Britain.

Yes, "Winston Smith" sounds so darn Russkie. How did I miss that. Of course, you know "1984" is set in the UK in, well, 1984. Although "EngSoc" (read the book) and the complete dependency on Big Bro in the UK was likely well on it way before that date.

Quote:
The relationship between the state and the population is much more complex than simple 'dependency'

I suppose it seems that way if one has been rendered docile and completely dependent on Big Bro. As you noted, Americans prefer to decide their own lives over the a life dictated by Bigbro UK/EU tyoe demands.

Quote:
the dimension of America you represent

Giggles!! Cool, I represent!! hahaha!

Yup, I represent that the US expects some parts of the world to stop whining like crybabies. If they rolled up their sleeves and got to work on their own problems, in lieu of continued whining about their benefactors, you'd truly be surprised at what could be accomplished!

Quote:
I couldn't possibly be envious of a nation

You are quite jade with envy. It is very common for persons who cannot reach the grapes to then pronounce them as "rotten". When faced with something superior, a person may feel that s/he has only have two choices: admit that they feel inferior or try to "bring down" the superior. I submit the there is another option - as I said, try to make one's own lot in life (personal, nationally corporate) better. That not only eliminates an obsession to complain, but also keeps one busy.

However, since most of the world is in love - and certainly depends on - with American culture; films, art, music - even our fast food - getting past an entrenched AmerEnvy won't be easy. Especially when ya need to do it using the American-invented internet, usually with an American-invented OS.

Quote:
They don't go rampaging round the world invading other people's countries, they've grown out of that

Knowing that they'd get their collective fiefdom's butts kicked yet again is another big factor!! Like pointing out the fact that mice do not raid the cat's dish - they've grown out of that, lol. Anyhoo, it's good that for now they're behaving and aren't right now calling for America to free them yet again. Or to keep them from killing each other. But thank you for pointing out that they've always been historically wrong.

Quote:
Britain should be ashamed that it did not show similar good sense.

LOL - see previous italisized sentence.

Quote:
Your lesson is yet to come, and it might be a hard one.

Americans have had a lesson. Might be a movie version of it you could catch for determining "real history". We've learned the lesson of failing to confront evil and uprooting it. England slept, but Americans cannot - unlike Britian/Europe we have no one to rescue us.

Galmin · The King has spoken! Joined: 30 Dec 2001 Posts: 1711

Quote:
I tried explaining to one of the lads here that a belief without real world substance is no more than a fantasy. The claim was "but America violated US law when it liberated Iraq!".

This thread, ey?

With your logic applied, Ron, this graphic shows that the unsolved 1,5 million violent crimes each year in the US actually are no crimes at all and the perpetrators are guilty of nothing, since noone got arrested.

Well hallelujah.

RonOnGuitar · Joined: 08 Jan 2003 Posts: 1916

Quote:
With your logic applied, Ron, this graphic shows that the unsolved 1,5 million violent crimes each year in the US actually are no crimes at all and the perpetrators are guilty of nothing, since noone got arrested.

No, lad, and in fact your graphic from whatever serves to actually "illustrate" the very concept that escapes your grasp. If the graphic is legit, it is dependent on crimes that have actually been commited, reported to the authority, been investigated. The authorities then produced a chart.

If you had whipped a chart using photoshop to show the number of alien abductions of those taken to Mars to serve as slaves, you would have another fantasy to go with your previously cited one - plus a chart. Read carefully - the keyword in this paragraph is authority. You have a fantasy, but obviously you have no authority to validate it as anything but emotionally-driven wishful thinking. (hint:I'd suggest fantasies involving beautiful women instead as being much more fun.)

Maybe you should call the cops who supposedly came up with this chart and report your feelings about "laws being violated". While you're there would you tell them I'm all worked up too? They didn't bust Dylan on the alarm clark thievery I mentioned.

Actually, law enforcement agencies do have to deal with these type of fantasies now & then. I knew one guy who was always talking about how the mafia was after him. He also thought people were sending messages to him from beyond the grave via his PC speakers (hmmm..if only he would've had a chart!). As in this case, I told him he really should talk to the authorities to help solve these henious wrongs. He did - and just talking about his fantasies with the FBI helped him emotionally get through them until he could get needed psych help.

Law enforcement agencies are used to dealing with claims like his and yours. People would sometines show up and claim that the government-aliens-bad guys were sending radio signals to their head. This was usually handled by having the "victim" wrap aluminum foil around his head to "block the radio signals". Worked most the time. In your case, you just need to go around the block a few more times, get a few years on yerself to help learn that a belief, no matter how strong, does not necessarily equal a real-world fact. But you'll learn this and move on to something tangible.

Your alternative.......?

memphis mike · Joined: 21 May 2003 Posts: 228

Questionnaire,

Quote:
This is an indication of how much you actually know about history.

I get sick of your condescending crap, it's in every reply you give...do you ever think you may have your facts right but your analysis of them wrong....or is that just impossible for you....

Yes, you are smart and use big words that I have to keep my dictionary in front of me....but I am a thinking man and I can get to the gist of what you say and just because you articulate it very well doesn't make it correct in every case...

Rev9Volts · Joined: 10 Jul 2003 Posts: 1327

dreamtone there is no proof today's moviees cause hand gun deaths.

some one said they could get a gun in less than 24 hours. hell i was raised in a house with them. took me about 30 seconds.

i grew up watching cowbow and indian movies where 99 percent of time the indians got killed. i never had the desire to shoot a native ametican.

Galmin · The King has spoken! Joined: 30 Dec 2001 Posts: 1711

Quote:
Maybe you should call the cops who supposedly came up with this chart and report your feelings about "laws being violated". While you're there would you tell them I'm all worked up too? They didn't bust Dylan on the alarm clark thievery I mentioned.

The chart comes from the US Bureau of Justice Statistics, a branch of the US Justice Department.

Had you bothered to read previous posts in this thread you would have known this. I have pointed this out to you in other threads, to no avail it seems.

May I remind you of what you said:

Quote:
You seem to experience a great deal of confusion on that question - somewhere you refered to a few obscure words in a UN charter preamble, confusing it with "law". It's very common for those learning English to experience such errors.

No preamble of the UN charter had been provided, or referred to by me at that particular time. Was your claim a deliberate lie or wishful thinking? Both?

What's your reality of choice?

1, There is no International Law

2, There is International Law when people like Saddam violates it, but not when we do.

3, There is International Law (I think we can skip this one, right?)

questionnaire · Joined: 29 May 2003 Posts: 640

..... definitely, because I'm just getting bad-tempered - and yes, Mike, condescending - and that's not the way I want to feel or come across. This board was a great idea by Mike Burn, but it's declining into farce already. I can't be bothered to answer all the points on Ron's last post because he constantly misconstrues the terms of the debate. One example only: I said that Orwell's novel was a political ALLEGORY - allegory, noun, '.... a form in which the apparent meaning of the characters and events is used to symbolize a deeper meaning...' - by which I mean that it was about the principles of Soviet communism in an English setting.

Ron:

character and events = English setting

deeper meaning = Soviet communism

Have you got that?

Eric Blair (his real name), one of the greatest writers in the English language, was an English socialist trying to warn us of the dangers of Stalinist totalitarianism and steer socialism along the more democratic path recommended by the likes of Trotsky, Gramsci and Keir Hardie. His dying words, to the people who, like Ron, misunderstood his work completely, were: "... for God's sake tell the idiots I'm a socialist".

All of Ron's points could be demolished in the same way, but I just can't continue the debate because the constant misinterpretation of meaning means that simple points need to be revisited time and time again. It's just too exasperating, I'm sorry.

The American Republican Right-Wing's constant xenophobia, arrogance, disregard for other cultures, smugness, bigotry, insularity, wilfull ignorance and aggression are just too much to bear, and the way they eventually move in to to dominate all discussion boards is just another example of all this. Y'know, Ron, if you really were in such good shape and strong as a culture, you wouldn't have to keep telling yourself and others about it. It's as though you are trying to convince yourself with a constant pep-talk. Apart from the populations of developing countries @#%$-up by American business practices and geopolitical chicanery since the 1950s, the people I really feel sorry for are the vast numbers of intelligent Americans who have to put up with living in a culture dominated by the neo-liberal and Christian right.

History bequeaths us all a great warning: any attempt at cultural imperialism, economic domination and military conquest produces serious backlashes. You came into WWII late, when it suited your own purposes, helped to secure a big victory and now you think you are invincible. You're like a novice pool-player suckering himself into a heavy defeat. Most Europeans now understand this. You just have to understand that we have learned lessons and are a lot more experienced than you are in this dimension. The backlash itself, on a global scale with nuclear weapons, could be absolutely terrifying. I just do not want to see any more people of any nationality incinerated. Please look beyond your own mythology, vote out Bush and stop looking at the world like its just an investment opportunity for the fat cats who have spent the past 20 years throwing your own people out of work.

That's my last word here.

Steve H

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

"dreamtone there is no proof today's moviees cause hand gun deaths."

There is also no proof that they don't. But my point was, if you read my posts, that movies are the #1 catalyst...as in my match and gasoline analogy. It's primarily what started the ball rolling.

As far as handguns in your house, cowboys and indians are of the past. Todays movies are about right now for the most part. And I'm sure you were instructed about what you were and were not allowed to do with guns...at the very least how to use them SAFELY!

I may not be correct, but I'm guessing maybe you lived in the country as a child, Rev9? Big difference from folks who live in the city, at any rate (were most of the hand-gun deaths occur). An analogy:

Both humans and rats are very social creatures. Scientists did a study with rats years ago to determine social effects of population within a confined space. They took a large cage and put just a few rats in it. All the rats died early...well short of their natural life-span. They then put in a much larger number, and the rats lived normally. But when they put in way more than the environment would support (overpopulation as in a city), the rats became agressive and in many instances killed each other off until the population was greatly diminished. (Note: the food supply was always sufficient for the number of rats involved.)

I lived in LA for many years before moving to Washington...which has a more laid-back culture. When I went back to LA to visit, I was struck by the level of stress apparent on everybodys faces and in their actions. It even made me stressed! Yes, there is more to it than just the media...but it is what is telling us (whether we realize it or not), "This is how you handle this kind of situation".

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

Rev9 - One more thing to add. I think the Cowboy/Indian movies you watched as a child would have had a negative effect on you if it had depicted the Cowboys getting killed 99 percent of the time.