We will never forget

[LarreeMP3]

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"Germans who may not have agreed with the government but went along with it are in a sense collaborators?"

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true

[NRKofOver]

So Larree, you are essentially saying that any Iraqi who did not deliberately speak out against Saddam and work towards overthrowing his regime are culpable in the same way, right? And that basically would be everyone in the country because if you did speak out, you either left the country, or you were killed. Sounds a lot like the Nazi party.

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[memphis mike]

Hitler had an ideology of a master race and he sold it to his people and they bought it and at that point sold their souls to the devil....those who believed in Hitler's ideology are the guilty ones....Sadaam had no ideology other than his lust for power and money. The Iraqi people were unfortunately mired in his playground....

[NRKofOver]

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sold it to his people and they bought it

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Mike, this is my only question in this whole debate. What if some people didn't 'buy it', they just tolerated it, because they wanted to stay alive? Are they too culpable? How do you know who was 'sold' on the idea and who wasn't?



Are you suggesting that there weren't people in Germany who hated the government but knew better than saying anything?



When I think about these things, I try really hard to put myself in other people's positions (which is difficult). I'm pretty sure I would've been killed because I can't imagine not speaking out, but I can also imagine if I did play along thinking it would get better, I wouldn't hesitate to send my child off to Hitler Youth rather than expose my discontent and have me and my child killed. I can imagine that I would cheer and yell as loud as I could to avoid suspicion when German troops came through town in a parade (which incidentally most Iraqi's did in the presence of their gov't leaders).

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[Jake Cepheus]

Yeah, and Hitler's Germany was such a bastion of political freedom compared to Hussein's Iraq. You want to slam the Germans and defend the Iraqis because it's a convenient way to propagate your own political views and pretend that history is backing you up. Germans = dirty liberal bastards who dared to publicly question the United States God-given right to invade Iraq. Iraqis = downtrodden & helpless masses suffering at the hands of a merciless dictator. Your argument is transparent, save the dialectic parlor tricks for the Fox News crowd.

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[Jake Cepheus]

I was responding to Mike, just in case that wasn't clear. NRK beat me to it.

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[debbie mannas]

Well said Jake.

[NRKofOver]

Well, Mike, I didn't bring up one element of the current situation with Germany and US relations.



I still think that any attempt at demonizing the entire German population for the acts of Hitler is kinda odd.



The topic of this thread 'never forget' is being kind of lost.



We believe now that carpet bombing is horrible and I don't really understand how anyone can believe that complete destruction of civilian populations (regardless of which 'side' your on) is somehow ethically justifiable. In WWII, both sides did it, and maybe at the time there were few other options, but in context to today's thinking, I can't imagine how anyone was 'justified'. Today, such actions would be totally reprehensible. The same thing with the A-Bombs in Japan, maybe the circumstances of the time can somehow be justified, but there's no way it would happen today, and conversely, if others had the technology, the US losing two cities would be as just.



I think that it's possible we're also forgetting how Hitler and Co. came to power. And we're forgetting how easy it is to have love of country and national pride move over into dangerous nationalism. And how Hitler did do a lot of apparently good things for the German people prior to unleashing his hell. There are a lot of parallels between 1930's Germany and 2000's US. Think about the economy of Germany, Hitler made it prosperous through borrowing creating huge deficits never before heard of in the country. Does it sound familiar? And think about how a despondent nation had lost a lot of pride because they were defeated in battle. Psychologically, it's no different than 9/11. Think about how the pride was restored through flag waving and blind patriotism and love for country and empty slogans and massive buildup of government offices for security and military actions and on and on. The only thing we're missing right now are jack booted thugs who will beat you because you speak out against the gov't, but I'm not sure we're all that far off.



And just one other point. Early in this thread someone suggested that the bombing of German cities was 'justified' because Germany did the same to other cities in other countries. Ask yourself one simple question. If an Iraqi man had his family destroyed incidentally during our bombings, would it be appropriate for him to retaliate through the bombing of a neighborhood in Canton Ohio?



How can he know it was incidental? How can he know that his family wasn't targeted? How can he really know that the US was just trying to make his life better? Violence does beget violence, no question, and Hitler brought on violence by being violent. But in our current situation, we started the violence, should we be at all suprised if that violence triggers more against us? And is that ok? It seems to me if you can justify random bombing of German civilians, then it has to be ok.

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[memphis mike]

Not well said jake, never even entered my mind about German's opposition to the US led invasion of Iraq...the question was raised on the basis of 1930's and 1940's Germany, anything more you extrapolated from this was

your own twist to it...Never, Ever, even once entered my mind...



btw, who even said I was in favor of the US led invasion of Iraq? I certainly never said it......

Edited by: memphis mike at: 7/26/03 1:24 am

[memphis mike]

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I still think that any attempt at demonizing the entire German population for the acts of Hitler is kinda odd.

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I agree. I said only those who believed, followed and passed themselves off as the "Master Race"....

[Jake Cepheus]

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btw, who even said I was in favor of the US led invasion of Iraq? I certainly never said it......

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Nice dodge, I'll give you bonus points for that one.

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[memphis mike]

Never entered my mind...believe what you will.....

[Galmin]

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Galmin, I can answer your post with one word: Fear.

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My repost of NRK's post? You answer that with one word; Fear?



Thank you. Maybe you can try to add some more words to it to give your answer some kind of sense?

If someone offered the word "Vegetables" or "Tabledance" as an answer to the same particular post, I would lend it equal status to yours as of relevance to topic.





Or maybe your answer is in reference to my little line of text going:"This post by NRK needs repeating, since it seems noone had the guts to adress it"?

In wich case your 'Fear' would be an acknowledge that indeed noone had the guts to adress it?



(Disclaimer: Yes, this post hold some traces of ironic content, but all in good spirit and it is not intended to upset or hurt anyone)

[LarreeMP3]

I hope he kicks your ass when he gets home.

[memphis mike]

I didn't realize it took guts to respond to anything on this board.....The first part of his statment was addressed throughout this thread. As far as comparing the USA to the NAZI regime the answer is just an obvious "NO". The American people have no inhumane ideology; unless you consider "democracy" a demon ideology.....we have no desire to own any more real estate...in fact, if the price is right, we might be willing to off a few states