How do they KNOW this? Can anyone explain to me?

[bbchris]

In this article at the bbc news website, it says "In Jerusalem, at least 16 people were killed when a Palestinian militant dressed as an Orthodox Jew blew himself up on board a bus in the city centre."



How do they know he was 'dressed up' as a Jew? Surely he's been blown apart? I'm not being difficult - I'm just not understanding here....

|Blah Blah|Thinking Out Loud|Jane Eliz||Talk Soup |

[LarreeMP3]

Eyewitnesses.

[bbchris]

And how do these 'eyewitnesses' know that they are 'dressed-up'? Were his friends there? ?

|Blah Blah|Thinking Out Loud|Jane Eliz||Talk Soup |

[LarreeMP3]

Actually, Chris. This is not the first time that a terrorist homicide bomber has dressed like a religeous Jew to carry out terrorist attacks.

[DreamTone7]

Imagine living in Isreal these days. They must live in such a hightened state of anxiety (and the associated awareness). I wouldn't be surprised if some of the people could tell you how many people were on the bus when it blew, and what they each were wearing. By process of elimination, they would know who "blew up".

[bbchris]

Interesting point Dreamtone! So a suicidal Israeli nutter would be called a "Palestinian terrorist' too?



Was taking land from the Palestinians really worth it?

|Blah Blah|Thinking Out Loud|Jane Eliz||Talk Soup |

[LarreeMP3]

A GUIDE TO HAMAS







By: Bluma Zuckerbrot- Finkelstein

The recent wave of Hamas atrocities in Israel and the contradictory statements emerging from Hamas spokespeople have led to much confusion regarding the nature of Hamas, its goals and the scope of its activities. The confusion stems from the fact that Hamas is simultaneously a terrorist organization and a mass social, political and religious movement.

Hamas--an Arabic acronym for Islamic Resistance Movement meaning "zeal"--was created in Gaza by Sheikh Ahmad Yassin shortly before the intifada as a more militant, Palestinian offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, a religious, political and social movement founded in Egypt and dedicated to the gradual victory of Islam. Since the mid 1970s, the Brotherhood has been expanding its influence in the territories through its vast array of social services. Hamas rendered the Brotherhood's policy of gradual Islamicization ineffectual and advocated an immediate holy war to liberate Palestine.



Yassin was arrested in May 1989 and is currently serving life imprisonment in Israel for ordering the kidnapping and killing of two Israeli soldiers and suspected Palestinian collaborators. From his prison cell, Yassin is believed to still control the movement and his release is one of Hamas' current demands.



Hamas is divided into political and military branches with the former directing Hamas' vast social service network. the Military branch is reportedly divided into three wings: an intelligence arm which gathers information about Palestinians suspected of collaboration, an arm which pursues those who have violated Islamic law and the Izzedine al- Qassam squads who are responsible for most of the terror attacks. The al-Qassam squads are comprised of a few dozen activists loosely organized into small, shadowy terror cells, at times operating independently of each other.



Hamas political and military leaders are based throughout the West Bank and Gaza and the organization maintains offices and representatives in Teheran, Damascus and Amman. The connections and levels of coordination between the military and political branches are concealed.



Hamas preaches and engages in violence and terror in order to destroy the state of Israel and replace it with an Islamic state. Its virulent hatred of Jews and Judaism is deeply rooted in the anti-Semitic writings of Muslim Brotherhood theologians. In August 1988, Hamas issues its covenant laying down its ideological principles and goals. Replete with anti-Semitism, it echoes the notorious Protocols of the Elders of Zion and charges Jews with an international conspiracy to gain control of the world. In Hamas' worldview, Islamic precepts forbid a Jewish state in the area known as Palestine, the Jewish people have no legitimate connection to the land of Israel and Yasir Arafat is a traitor to the Islamic Palestinian cause. As its covenant proclaims, "The land of Palestine is an Islamic trust...It is forbidden to anyone to yield or concede any part of it...Israel will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it..."



Hamas launched its campaign of violence in 1989, first against Israeli soldiers and suspected Palestinian collaborators and then against Israeli civilians. In the wake of the Oslo agreement, Hamas leaders intensified their rhetoric and vowed to derail the peace process through violent attacks. Drive-by shootings, firebombings and stabbings increased and suicide missions began in April 1994, when a Hamas suicide bomber rammed an explosives-laden car into a bus in Afula killing eight and wounding 50 others. Since then, Hamas has engaged in at least 10 other suicide bombings. Its campaign of wanton terror has resulted in the deaths of over 130 people. Through systematic indoctrination, social pressure, and the promise of paradise, Hamas religious and military leaders recruit young, poor men for suicide missions and other attacks.



Unlike the more shadowy Islamic Jihad, Hamas is a well- entrenched, all-encompassing presence in daily life in the West Bank and Gaza, administering mosques, schools, clinics, youth groups, athletic clubs and day-care centers. Capitalizing on depleting PLO coffers after the PLO's ill-fated support of Saddam Hussein, Hamas augmented its social service infrastructure, providing Palestinians with essential humanitarian services which the PLO was no longer able to furnish. In fact, 95 percent of Hamas' budget is believed to finance its social service activities.



Several factors make it difficult to assess, with any precision, popular support for Hamas in the territories. Many Palestinians are drawn primarily or solely to Hamas' humanitarian services rather than its political and military doctrines. At the same time, the boundaries between Hamas' political/social and its military activities are blurred particularly since Hamas leaders use mosques, kindergartens, and youth clubs as forums for spewing anti-Israel propaganda and mobilizing support for violence against Israel. In addition, it is not uncommon to find divided PLO-Hamas loyalties within families, resulting in dual and constantly shifting allegiances.



Nevertheless, prior to the September 1993 Israeli- Palestinian agreement, support for Hamas was estimated at 20- 40 percent in the West Bank and 60-80 percent in Gaza. Today, direct support for Hamas is estimated at 15-25 percent of the total population with varying degrees of sympathy among many more.



Hamas enjoys strong financial backing from Iran, private benefactors and Muslim charities in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states, Palestinian expatriates across the globe and American donors. Its budget has been estimated at between $40-70 million and 85 percent of it reportedly comes from abroad; the remaining 15 percent is raised among Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza.



An Iranian-Palestinian Islamic alliance began to emerge during the intifada and gained momentum with the burgeoning Arab-Israeli peace process in the wake of the 1991 Gulf War. United in their militant rejection of Israel and in pursuing the end of the peace process, Hamas and Iran strengthened ties. The bilateral relationship was cemented when a delegation of senior Hamas leaders visited Teheran in October 1992 and was reportedly promised $30 million annually, as well as training and logistical support in Iran, southern Lebanon and Sudan.



According to U.S. law enforcement officials and Israeli security authorities, Hamas raises funds in the U.S. through mosques, Muslim organizations and legitimate charitable organizations and engages in various other activities here. The amount of money raised in the U.S. as well as the nature and scope of Hamas activities on our shores are difficult to document.



Most of the funds raised here flow to Hamas-run hospitals, schools and charities with only a portion diverted to Hamas' armed wing to finance terrorist attacks. That most of the money indeed goes to humanitarian services renders it extremely difficult to sever private American donations to Hamas. In January 1995, President Clinton signed an executive order blocking the U.S. assets of "terrorist organizations that threaten to disrupt the Middle East peace process" and prohibiting financial transactions with them. According to the Treasury Department, since the directive, $800,000 worth of Hamas- related assets have been frozen. It is unfortunate that comprehensive anti-terrorism legislation which passed the Senate in June and would have codified fundraising restrictions and expanded the ban on providing any type of material support to terrorist organizations, was greatly watered down in the version passed by the House.



Other reported Hamas activities in the United States include recruiting members, planning meetings, paramilitary and firearms training, and production and dissemination of hate-filled videos and print materials vilifying Israel, America and moderate Muslims. Centers of Hamas-related activity have been identified in Illinois, Virginia, Michigan, Texas and California.



It is further suspected that the political and military leadership of Hamas was situated in the U.S. between September 1989 and February 1993. In January 1993, two Chicago-area Palestinian-Americans were arrested in Israel for attempting to transfer $100,000 to Hamas from the U.S. According to Israeli authorities, the two were in Israel to rebuilt the Hamas terror network after the December 1992 Hamas deportations.



After this incident and the increasing interest the FIB took in Hamas in the wake of the February 1993 World Trade Center bombing, Hamas officials are believed to have fled the U.S. A senior Hamas leader, Musa Abu Marzuk, who is suspected of directing attacks against Israel, left northern Virginia and was arrested this past August trying to reenter the country. At this writing, Israel has requested his extradition.



In recent months, divisions within Hamas have surfaced with respect to negotiating with the Palestinian Authority, participating in the nascent Palestinian political process in the West Bank and Gaza and halting armed attacks against Israel. The clandestine and diffuse structure of Hamas renders it extremely difficult to determine the reliability and authoritativeness of recent statements suggesting a cease- fire. It is further unclear whether recent conciliatory messages represent a strategic change in policy or short term tactical considerations in the Hamas effort to gain political power. Ultimately and tragically, recent Hamas actions speak louder than words.













Bluma Zuckerbrot-Finkelstein is Director, Special Projects- Middle East

for the National Office of the Anti-Defamation League.

This article first appeared in the St. Louis Jewish Light (March 13).

[NRKofOver]

Quote:

---

In Hamas' worldview, Islamic precepts forbid a Jewish state in the area known as Palestine, the Jewish people have no legitimate connection to the land of Israel and Yasir Arafat is a traitor to the Islamic Palestinian cause. As its covenant proclaims, "The land of Palestine is an Islamic trust...It is forbidden to anyone to yield or concede any part of it...Israel will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it..."

---

Isn't this the real root of all the problems there? The Israeli's feel exactly the opposite and believe that Israel is there by divine right for the Jewish people. And although there is a democracy in Israel, voting is limited to citizens of Israel (which makes sense) but the vast majority of citizens are Jewish. And all I'm trying to say here, is that if citizenship was opened up to non-Jews on a wide scale level, and those people had voting rights, and those people voted out a 'Jewish' state, how many Jews would be happy about that? How many Jews would then become what the Palestinians are now? How many Jews would fight the new powers with the same kind of tactics that the undermanned and undergunned Palestinians are using? As long as there are two diametrically opposed groups who believe they have a divine right to a piece of ground, then this will never ever end.



I personally believe that both sides are wrong. Both sides perpetuate violence to meet their personal ends. Both sides believe that they are 'right' on a spiritual level and that's very difficult to reason with and find common ground. Both sides believe that 'winning' this battle/war is so important that no cost is too high. I don't think peace will ever be found in Israel, not just because of the Palestinians, but Israelis too.



Let's not forget that Rabin was assasinated by a Jew, not an Arab. There are liberal/moderate Jews just like there are liberal/moderate Muslims, but there are also the fringe radicals on both sides that prevent peace at all costs.



I would love to hear somebody express a solution to all of this, because I honestly don't believe there is a solution. There is no way that Palestinians and Jews will ever live in harmony in the same land mass. If either side has a legitimate religious claim to the land known as Israel, then they both have a legitimate claim. One cannot be more 'right' than the other. The area is sacred and divine for both religions, one cannot supercede the other just because they say they do. Can anyone possibly imagine an Israel with a balanced population of Jews and Muslims who find a way to make democracy work, without either side trying to infuse government and law with their respective religions? That's the only way there can be a solution, and I just don't see it ever happening.



My personal take: let it go. Let the Israeli's try to create the stability they want with whatever means they feel necessary. And the world should just turn their heads for awhile. Let the Jews and the Muslims annihilate each other over a very small very desolate piece of land. Maybe they'll learn something before everyone is dead and maybe they won't. But either way, it doesn't seem to me that decades of diplomacy and efforts from the outside world have made a bit of difference, so why care anymore?

Read all about ME!

[DreamTone7]

Most of these poeple have learned to hate each other long before they were old enough to understand what the fighting was all about. Remove the reasons, and the learned hate will still be there. Who owns or sits on the land at this point is inconsequential. It's just an excuse to hate.

[LarreeMP3]

I believe that the majority of the people on both sides want to live in peace.

[DreamTone7]

I don't think very many of them know what peace really is. It's not just the absence of war, you know. And since, at this stage of the game, most were probably born into the hate, they've never known life without it.

[Galmin]

Quote:

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I believe that the majority of the people on both sides want to live in peace.

---

So do I.





Sod the warmongers, we're sending peacekeeping troops in.

[bbchris]

I don't think very many of them know what peace really is. It's not just the absence of war, you know. And since, at this stage of the game, most were probably born into the hate, they've never known life without it.



So true. They think that way of life is normal, unbelievable for those who live in the West - what do we do? e.g. Worry about getting to work on time and if we'll have enough time to grab a coffee from Starbucks? !?



I've read about that girl's letters (the one who was run over by a tank in Palestine) and her description of how people live their lives whilst tanks roll by their houses, shootings are occuring, they think it's 'normal'. The human spirit has much tolerance.

|Blah Blah|Thinking Out Loud|Jane Eliz||Talk Soup |

[MIKE BURN]

Quote:

---

Senator: U.S. force may be needed in Mideast



Sunday, June 15, 2003 Posted: 4:40 PM EDT (2040 GMT)



WASHINGTON (CNN) -- U.S. forces could help target Palestinian militant groups if the Palestinians' new prime minister is unable to persuade them to end their deadly campaign against Israel, the Republican chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee said Sunday.



Speaking on "Fox News Sunday," Sen. Richard Lugar, R-Indiana, said it "may be the conclusion" that an international force is needed to stop the violence and if so, "it is possible that there will be an American participation."



"But having said that, I would just say this is down the trail," he said. "We have to be very, very careful about the use of American forces, whether they are to be all by themselves, whether with NATO, whether with the U.N., with whoever."



Asked if that meant such troops would go after Hamas, Lugar said: "It may not be just Hamas, but clearly Hamas is right in the gunsights."



Two top Senate Intelligence Committee members, including the Republican chairman, Pat Roberts of Kansas, also urged caution on the issue of possible U.S. troop involvement.



Roberts told CBS's "Face the Nation" that "most of us have thought about a peacekeeping force" in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, but taking on Hamas would be "a far different role other than peacekeeping."



"That would be rather a dramatic step, to say the least," he said.



Sen. Carl Levin, D-Michigan, said Congress "would be very cautious" on such a potentially explosive issue.



"First of all, we would want to know whether the parties would want an international force there," he told CBS. "But I think, more importantly, we've got to get the Palestinian Authority to track down Hamas. ... That should be our major focus."



Hamas, a Palestinian Islamic fundamentalist organization, has been labeled a terrorist organization by the U.S. State Department. The group's military wing has acknowledged terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians and military personnel.



President Bush, spending Father's Day weekend with his father and other family members at the Bushes' compound in Kennebunkport, Maine, told reporters Sunday "that the free world, those who love freedom and peace, must deal harshly with Hamas and" other militant groups who engage in deadly violence.



"The message is clear," he said. "Prime Minister [Mahmoud] Abbas wants peace. Prime Minister [Ariel] Sharon wants peace. America wants peace. The European Union wants peace. But there are clearly killers who don't.



"For those of us who are interested in moving the process forward, we must combine our efforts to cut off all money and support for anybody who tries to sabotage the peace process."



Bush said he would "lend the weight" of his government to support the drive for peace, which he predicted would succeed, but only with "a lot of work."



Lugar said he did not want to "race ahead of a lot of talks that must take place" and that the Israelis and Abbas ought to be allowed to "settle the situation."



But, Lugar said, Abbas "is simply incapable of doing that."



"He indicated it would be civil war," he said. "He doesn't have the forces."



The Israelis, Lugar said, "are fully up to the task of dealing with Hamas, and they should," although he said he does not support Israel's policy of "targeted killings" of militant leaders.



Lugar also said an armed international force could be needed to keep the Palestinians and Israelis apart.



"And even more important, ... to rout out the terrorism which is at the heart of the problem," he said.



Israel and the Palestinian Authority endorsed a road map for peace created by the United States, the European Union, Russia and the United Nations.



Initial steps in the road map require Israel's dismantling of unauthorized settlement outposts and Palestinian efforts to crack down on terrorism.

---

[questionnaire]

There'll be hatred and violence as long as there is religion. Most of the trouble in the world can be traced to the survival of 3 obsolete desert religions, and the failure of the Enlightenment to establish secular humanism as an alternative way of creating a moral order. Underneath all that religious nonsense we are the same species sharing mutual interests and problems, the only slight differences being bone structure and levels of melanin in the outer skin layer.



Behind the toughened screens

Of their limousines

Sophisticated primitives

Who regulate the scene ....



from



'Building The Pyramids, Again' .....

www.mp3.com/thequestionnaires