I am sick of all the anti-American crap I am reading.

[Smartass]

I like it when a girl talks about fricking.

[RonOnGuitar]

hej Jorn -



Although there wasn't a formal declaration of war until December of 1941, America's war effort began earlier on, most notably with "Lend-Lease" war support to Britain:



(snippet - link below for full text)

Lend-Lease

"The lend-lease program helped Britain by putting America's economic strength to work. The program provided between forty-two and fifty billion WW II dollars worth of aid to the war against the Axis powers. In this way, it was a form of economic warfare. It was what Churchill meant when he referred to nonbelligerency in his first letter to FDR. At this point in the war, FDR had moved the U.S. to helping the war effort with all means except sending armed forces."

history.acusd.edu/gen/st/~mdoms/pg4.html



I think that you'll find that many, if not most , Americans see the French (and Europe) as being good people - but with a long history of bad judgment. World history would seem to bear this conclusion out.



While hopefulness is a good quality to cultivate, I believe great dangers are to be found in embracing a naive worldview. In the current situation with weapons inspections, it's not just naivete one should be concerned with, especially re:Hans Blix and his crew. Blix has a long record of incompetence and has a history of being easily duped by Saddam:

(quote from Slate-MSN, link below for article)

"His most dramatic failure occurred when IAEA failed to uncover Iraq's nuclear program during the late 1980s. As Blix told the Guardian earlier this year, "It's correct to say that the IAEA was fooled by the Iraqis. When the Security Council settled on Blix as chief weapons inspector in 2000 (reportedly as the committee's 24th choice), the New York Times editorial page blasted him as a "man of uncertain resolve," a "disappointing choice," and "a disturbing sign that the international community lacks the determination to rebuild an effective arms inspection system in Iraq."

slate.msn.com/id/2074629



I don't agree with the taunting tones heard from many Americans (e.g. calling people "eurowimps") - but in cases such as the question here re:France, a great many Americans died in Normandy alone in the opening push to free France. My sense is that there's a feeling among many Amercans of great betrayal and a lack of gratitude by France. There's a lot of emotions on all sides these days. Hopefully all this anger from all corners will fade and not last too long - time really does heal wounds.



--ron--

[Seismic Anamoly]

Truth be known, WW2 actually "began" when the Japanese invaded Manchuria in 1936...American pilots were shooting down Jap Zeros, and vice-versa, over China in 1938 before the war ever began in the European theatre...the "Fighting Tigers" and their P-38's...unofficially, of course...but there fighting nevertheless...

[Electrodynamics]

@ Seismic



What so special about this letter?



Does it reflect your opinion? Are you happy about women finding their way to army? Don't you like french?



Or did Dominique de Villepin's speech simply frustrate you as it did Bush and Powell?



Well, I loved it.

---

homepage | mp3.com | contact@electrodynamics.de

[MIKE BURN]

This just rushed in.......

Quote:

---

Anti-Americanism in Europe deepens



'New generation of U.S.-haters being created'



LONDON, England (CNN) --

A Channel 4 television poll in the UK said the country that Britons regard as the biggest threat to peace today is not Iraq or North Korea -- it is the United States.



In recent debates in the UK Parliament, the anti-American undercurrent often means the vilification not of Iraq President Saddam Hussein -- but of U.S. President George W. Bush.



"The mass of British public opinion is deeply sceptical if not completely hostile to this war, believe it's been fought in the interests of the Americans and nothing else," Labour MP Jeremy Corbyn recently told the House of Commons.



Another MP from Prime Minister Tony Blair's Labour Party, Dennis Skinner, puts this blunt question to Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon after he announces more British planes will be sent to the Gulf:



" Will he confirm that this is all in aid to satisfy the whims of this tinpot American president?"



"This war is solely about oil. George Bush has never given a damn about human rights," London mayor Ken Livingstone said in London.

---

MIKE

[MIKE BURN]

This too..............

Quote:

---

US to punish German 'treachery'



Peter Beaumont, David Roseand Paul Beaver

Sunday February 16, 2003

The Observer/UK



America is to punish Germany for leading international opposition to a war against Iraq. The US will withdraw all its troops and bases from there and end military and industrial co-operation between the two countries - moves that could cost the Germans billions of euros.

The plan - discussed by Pentagon officials and military chiefs last week on the orders of Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld - is designed 'to harm' the German economy to make an example of the country for what US hawks see as Chancellor Gerhard Schröder's 'treachery'.



The hawks believe that making an example of Germany will force other countries heavily dependent on US trade to think twice about standing up to America in future.



This follows weeks of increasingly angry exchanges between Rumsfeld and Germany, in which at one point he taunted Germany and France for being an irrelevant part of 'old Europe'.



Now Rumsfeld has decided to go further by unilaterally imposing the Pentagon's sanctions on a country already in the throes of economic problems.



'We are doing this for one reason only: to harm the German economy,' one source told The Observer last week.



'Our troops contribute many millions of dollars. Why should we continue to support a country which has treated Nato and the protection we provided for decades with such incredible contempt?'



Another Pentagon source said: 'The aim is to hit German trade and commerce. It is not just about taking out the troops and equipment; it is also about cancelling commercial contracts and defence-related arrangements.'



The Pentagon plan - and the language expressed by officials close to Rumsfeld - has horrified State Department officials, who believe that bullying other countries to follow the US line will further exacerbate anti-Americanism and alienate those European countries that might support a United Nations resolution authorising a war.



German industry earns billions of euros every year from supporting the US Army Europe which, although reduced from its Cold War heights, still totals 42,000 troops and 785 tanks - almost three times as many as the British Army owns. Many of these soldiers and their fighting equipment, including Apache helicopters, have already been sent to the Gulf.



German industry is heavily involved in supporting the US presence. Among the defence companies which stand to lose out are missile-maker Diehl, aerospace and defence giant EADS Deutschland, armaments maker Rheinmetall and vehicle maker Krauss-Maffei Wegmann.



There is also a US Air Force contingent of about 15,000 service people with bases at Bitburg, Frankfurt-am-Main and neighbouring Ramstein, where the commander doubles as part of the Nato command. This force includes nearly 60 F-16 fighter-bombers and a squadron of A-10 tank-buster aircraft.



Rumsfeld and his staff have made no attempt to hide their fury at Schröder's 'treachery and ineptitude' over Iraq. Last week Schröder leaked to reporters a Franco-German plan for avoiding war by increasing the number of UN weapons inspectors before informing his American counterparts.



'After this, Germany is finished as a serious power,' one of the sources added. 'This is simply not the way to conduct diplomacy at a moment of international crisis.' One diplomatic source said Rumsfeld was 'furious at Germany. He is a bruiser and it looks as though he means to do it'.



Under these plans, the US would move its troops in Europe eastwards to countries such as Poland, the Czech Republic and the Baltic states, all of which have strongly supported America's line against Saddam Hussein. It is likely that the overall size of the deployment would be reduced, as the US military changes its priorities for a long-term and disparate engagement with international terrorism.



Although Rumsfeld had already been considering a redeployment of US troops around the world after a war in Iraq to save money and respond to new threats, the plans now under consideration go far beyond what had been discussed.

---

MIKE

[Seismic Anamoly]

my thoughts...



1. @#%$ Iraq...let them alone...let them build whatever they want...I couldn't care less...I'm on THIS side of the world...and it ain't worth a couple hundred thousand young American lives trying to save pondscum from pondscum...the only respectable society in the area is Israel, and they are gonna take care of the problem anyway, no matter WHAT you or I think...50 million barbequed Iraqis...that'll be very cool...I'm gonna love it...REALLY love it...



2. I will be the first to fall out of my chair laughing when the crazy bastard Saddam does deliver his first nuke...let's see, maybe the Eiffel Tower? That would make a nice impression....



3. I have a 6 year old son, and it'll be a cold...no a FREEZING...day in hell before I EVER let him fly off to Europe or China or SE Asia or anywhere else besides HERE to fight an enemy...you clean up your own @#%$...me and mine ain't coming to pull your ass out of the fire...not this time...



4. We have 23 years oil reserve in America (documented) to utilize that will run everything we have if every single imported drop was shut off right now...there is enough Coal in this country to last forever...so if the oil companies really wanted to, they could invent a way to scrub the emissions from the coal to prevent air pollution and get into the coal business within 10-15 years...they just haven't because we are too busy being "nice" to the rest of the world by buying their oil and they like the money...hell, we don't even use what we pump out of Alaska; we sell every drop to Japan...after we perfect the scrubber, the middle east can drink their oil for breakfast...they'll have to after we cut off all the humanitarian aid...and Europe can pay the 100+ dollar a barrel prices they will be charging...yes, it will be expensive here in the short-run, but I'm willing to make the sacrifice...



5. NATO...@#%$...SCRAP that puppy and we'll bring our folks home to start fighting the drug cartel in Latin America and protect AMERICANS and their health, not people who couldn't give a Ratt's Ass about us...prop your socialist governments up for yourselves...NATO is history soon...I love it...no; I'm thrilled...



6. Don't think we can do it? Think again...Global Economy? @#%$ that...as I said, it'll hurt for a short-term, but in the long run, we'll be self-suffcient again as we were before we got "compassionate" while all of you are cutting each other's throats, and I'm gonna love every minute of it...yeah, I know what your saying..."ain't no way they can do it"...seems like I heard that same thing before Neil Armstrong stepped on the Moon...ain't see any Germans, French, Japanese, Chinese, or Iraqis walking around up there lately..."oh, but they helped you"; only because we, out of friendship, allowed them to...we would have done it on our own if we had wanted it that way...hell, that was 34 YEARS ago...if we had stopped worrying about all the other worldly problems and quit trying to be everybody's friend who had their hands out for our money, we'd be kickin' ass right now...and we will be...this is the beginning of something BEAUTIFUL for my country...for yours, well...you know the old saying...@#%$ HAPPENS..



And with that, I bid all of you farewell...good luck and may God be with you...you're gonna need it...and if your American and don't particularly like what I have to say...please refer to the last two words of #6...



Yo Good Buddy



Seismo the Pathological PissAnt

[LarreeMP3]

Let's leave that rat bastard saddam alone to build some nukes. If he doesn't use them himself, his son surely will.

[LarreeMP3]

Time for some good old isolationism. Let us get back to inventing and manufacturing the things that the rest of the world wants so bad.

Edited by: LarreeMP3 at: 2/16/03 8:23:46 pm

[Electrodynamics]

@ Seismic and Laree



So...if you don't know a solution besides war you hide in your hole ?



You know what I could also say?



- Yeah...let Saddam build the weapons you sold him - good idea to put pressure on us!

- Yeah...leave him and everybody alone but I think Eifel Tower isn't next as long as the Chrysler Building is still standing

- Yeah...protect yourself, build up defense systems, spy out your phone calls and place cams and police men everywhere..........happy living in a police state



(let's better hope nothing of this will happen)



YOU SEE HOW SENSELESS IT IS TO ARGUE THIS WAY? YOU REALLY THINK IT'S THAT SIMPLE??? USE YOUR MIND.



God bless you 2 and god bless the USA.

---

homepage | mp3.com | contact@electrodynamics.de

Edited by: Electrodynamics  at: 2/16/03 9:29:53 pm

[Electrodynamics]

I QUOTE A GERMAN NEWSPAPER FROM FRIDAY:



"...on the peace demo in Leipzig people held a sign with the phrase "Yankee go home" - but does that reflect the mentality of the majority? No. Most of the Germans/Europeans love the Americans."

"...we love them for their vitality, for their helpfulness, for their optimism and their love for freedom. We thank them for the rescue of the nazi regime, the protection of the Sowjet Union during the cold war and the re-union of east and west germany..."



"...what irritates us is their opportunism when allying with dictators if it will bring THEM advantages. An example for this is Saddam Hussein, they're trying to get rid off now.

...what also irritates us is the disregarding of human rights when dealing with the inmates from the Taliban in Guatanamo Bay

...and we're pretty frightened how rigorous they take advantages from their position as the world leader."









I feel pretty much the same - I love America - not everything about it - but I think that's quite normal. And most of the Europeans do also.



I'm quite interested what your media tells about us in detail! I watch CNN and BBC regulary - and maye that's where your anger comes from.



I hope you would not really be happy about 50mio. dead people. Otherwise you should really visit your doctor.





Think about what you write or it may sound awkward and insulting - even if it's penned by an American.

---

homepage | mp3.com | contact@electrodynamics.de

Edited by: Electrodynamics  at: 2/16/03 9:44:19 pm

[MIKE BURN]

Quote:

---

yeah, I know what your saying..."ain't no way they can do it"...seems like I heard that same thing before Neil Armstrong stepped on the Moon...



ain't see any Germans, French, Japanese, Chinese, or Iraqis walking around up there lately..."oh, but they helped you"; only because we, out of friendship, allowed them to...

---

LOL!



That's THE attitude, we 'love' so much...



WHO tells him the real story now?



Or should I be the beelzebub again?

MIKE

[NRKofOver]

For the European peoples, , and I only offer this up as a form of greater understanding, the vast majority of Americans have lived lives of isolationism. They never have left the country (unless it was to Tijuana or Juarez to buy cheap stuff) and even worse, a large percentage don't pay attention to world affairs. They seriously do not know that the US armed and supported Saddam even when they knew he was a tryant and a bad man. We are the 'greatest country in the world' to many many people here because they have no frame of reference, other than dogmatic ideology that is force-fed on us from a very very young age.



If anything, this is a great time in history to bridge some gaps, Americans are all over the internet and maybe some level of understanding can be attained by everyone, rather than the whole US vs. Everyone Else mentality, which I just hate. But now that I think about it, I'm part of Everyone Else more than I am part of the US in that equation, so f**k it, it's time to move, !

Read all about ME!

[RonOnGuitar]

Hello Electro,



By way of correction:



Actually, the WMD weapons in question here are not really nuclear as are those of the "poor man A-Bombs" variety. (But along that line it's not encouraging - as has been noted - that Blix & Co. readily confesses to being easily duped by Hussein when it comes to nuclear weapons material.)



On the "po' boy Abomb" issue - if one is predisposed to lay blame correctly, it is as you said not "THAT SIMPLE" as blaming America. In fact, Saddams biggest suppliers of

chemical weaponry" are to be found in the countries that have no desire to stop him. Germany leads the list, with one firm (Preussag) selling the most weapons material.



From one critique of the double-standard, full article at link:



"If it's not the height of hypocrisy and opportunism, Schroeder's preemptive "no war. period" stance on Iraq and insistence on a "German Way" (Deutscher Weg)........In 1991, Iraq fired dozens of Scud missiles at Israel and threatened to arm the missiles with poison-gas and biological warheads. Most of the contents of those warheads were made in Germany or made with the aid of German engineers and technology. In light of German history, can Herr Schroeder countenance the possibility of a future poison gas attack on Israel (or anyone else) facilitated by German know-how? Schroeder may not want to go to war. So be it. But he should regard it as his most solemn obligation to do his absolute damnedest to make sure that in the future "good Germans" don't once again stand there and say: "We didn't know."

www.atimes.com/atimes/Mid...5Ak02.html



Re: Eiffel Tower dangers, it's not fantasy -

Been a target for Islamic terrorists since at least 1994:

"The GIA, or Armed Islamic Group, is a violent terrorist organization based in Algeria. The first major international incident involving the GIA was the 1994 hijacking of an Air France jet in Marseilles, in which hijackers reportedly attempted to crash the plane, fully loaded with fuel, into the Eiffel Tower."

www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/fr.../cron.html



My guess is that America doesn't need to go isolationist to extricate itself from ties that currently pose major problems. The UN is very likely to fall apart as did it's predecessor, the "League Of Nations". The previous incarnation collapsed due to is inability - or unwillingness - to summon up the strength to challenge the "Saddams" of it's era. The UN looks to be following suite, at least in that respect.



--ron--

[Electrodynamics]

...Germany, France, USA, Italy,... Everyone is involved in having sold weapons to Irak. May it be A, B or C weapons. We ALL closed our eyes to make money.



If you want to know, USA in particular sold bio-cultures like Anthrax to Irak. These were purposed for medical and educational work only but you can't tell me the USA didn't know. It was quite obvious at this time for everyone.



I don't support Schroeder's way, saying we wouldn't support USA in no way. I think that was a bad move by him.



I also don't say that war is not the solution, I say war is the very last. And going to war before trying everything to solve the problems on another way would be unwise.