seven spanish agents murdered in Irak

[yidneth]

HORROR goes on and on

[MIKE BURN]

It will be worse.



Too bad that Aznar was not able to say "No" to Bush.



I think I'm right that the majority of the Spanish Population was never supporting the war in Iraq.



Now Spain pays a prize also for pure nonsense, because a lot of people will die, until all foreign elements have left Iraq.



The tactics of the Iraqi's (NOT Al-Quaeda) is, to terrorize now all weaker units of the "united peace forces", until everybody will be out except of the Americans, which will be the last target to concentrate on.



And even the USA will not "win" there.



You can't win a guerilla-war, you only can stop it at some point, when people on all sides are sick of seeing too many people die. Only the Iraqi's will be able to sacrifice themselves until the last fighting man, the USA not.



Today the CIA published, that at no point, anybody in the American Administration had evidence about the Iraqi "weapons of mass destruction" program, but Mr. Powell prolly lied when presenting fake "evidence" to the United Nations and fooling Spain at least.



There were no "weapons of mass destruction" nor had Iraq anything to do with 9/11.



The world was fooled, but many countries did say this in advance., like my own and refused to send troops for a "peace" mission, which was no "peace" mission from the very beginning.

[yidneth]

i guess you're right

most spanish people doesn't support war

i do not

but well, i have to say also that Aznar has governed quite right during this eight years, and i was the most sceptic. I see now how the other politic issues take the war thing as a way to get votes, because Aznar took the decision to support it, many opportunism which is a shame too. I think he did wrong, but i also think that mistake is being ashamely taken by other politics to take a piece of the cake on elections.

I mean i think he's doing wrong but on the other hand, that doesn't change the fact he's done some right things too. Spain has always been attacked by terrorism, and Aznar was the first one putting HARD HAND on terrorists in spain, i guess that was the reason bush got acceptance in spain, because our delicate dealing with terrorism too, or thus i think.

This war is not meant to be and it's a major mistake, on my honest opinion, but i guess there are other compromises in between, dunno.

for me IRAK WAR was really forced, and not well based, and just a manifestation of FORCE, and it scares me to think that a war can be done that way, dunno, it's scary,

i think americans themselves have to cope with the fact that for most europeans, all of it, has been an error, and very scarily done (i'm sorry but it's true), and well

it goes on and on

sigh



my condolences for the families

so far let's nor forget that there is still a war there,

and war is by definition a major mistake

[HKRockChick]

Have you seen Bowling for Columbine? I am so glad this movie won an Oscar. It should be required viewing for everyone. Just watched it yesterday.

[bbchris]

I'm a big Michael Moore fan. hahaha We watched this movie awhile back and I love his documentary angle.



He's good at presenting both sides. I don't always agree with what he says (Bowling for Columbine, Hey Dude where's my country etc.) I just enjoy people stating facts in an easily digestible manner.

[HKRockChick]

Stupid White Men?



Chris (the one in our office heh) loaned it to me a few months ago.



Yeah, hes a bit OTT, but there's some very solid truths in there.

[MIKE BURN]

[Sterling30sg]

The USA should have invaded 50 years ago if they really wanted democracy to take root and flourish throughout the region, now the going will be tough to say the least, and I wish we had invaded instead with investment capitol after the Iraqi people had disposed of Sadamn themselves.., a little late for that now I guess..



About "Bowling for Columbine.." Good entertainment value I guess but if you know the real causes that are responsible for that tragedy occurring, you'll soon realise that Michael Moore is completely dishonest throughout the entire movie..., he doesn't come near the real truth.., it sure seems like exploitation if you ask me.

[bbchris]

Yes I've read Stupid White Men too and seen his TV series 'The Awful Truth' too.



Gregg - why's he dishonest? I agree he has his own agenda - we all do when we state our reasons for what we believe in. I thought he was quite thought-provoking in the Bowling fC movie. I think that was his intention. At least it's got people worldwide to discuss things openly.

|Blah Blah|Thinking Out Loud|Jane Eliz||Talk Soup |

[Sterling30sg]

I thought he was quite thought-provoking in the Bowling fC movie. I think that was his intention. At least it's got people worldwide to discuss things openly.

-----

He definitely wanted to provoke your feelings, or so it seems, but where have you seen any discussion by MM on the info. contained in the following links??? (That's what I mean by dishonest and exploitive Chris.., there's not a mention of any of this in his movie, many ommissions that just seems to convienient...)





www.happinessonline.org/BeTemperate/p1.htm



The Physicians Desk Reference (PDR) records that, during controlled clinical trials of Luvox, manic reactions developed in 4 percent of children. Mania is defined as "a form of psychosis characterized by exalted feelings, delusions of grandeur … and overproduction of ideas." Court records show that the prescription for Harris had been filled 10 times between April 1998 and March 1999, and that three-and-a-half months before the shooting the dose had been increased — a common thread many experts say they are finding prior to adverse reactions to psychotropic drugs. The autopsy on Harris revealed a "therapeutic level" of Luvox in his system.







www.eagleforum.org/educate/1999/july99/columbine.html



Death Education





Colorado Eagle Forum President Jayne Schindler produced video on death education in 1987.

In 1987, Eagle Forum of Colorado produced a two-hour video in which student Tara Becker spoke at length about the relentless focus on death, dying and suicide in her junior class at Columbine High School. Recalls Colorado Eagle Forum state president Jayne Schindler: "Newspapers in Jefferson County, where Columbine is located, were lamenting the increase in teen suicides, reporting that 18 youths had killed themselves between January 1985 and June 1986 - that's 18 deaths in 18 months! Tara and several of her classmates also attempted suicide as a result of this depressing curriculum."

[HKRockChick]

but the actual focus was on why there were so many gun related deaths in the US compared to the rest of the world. That is an irrefutable fact, and the point he was trying to make was perhaps it was the culture of fear?



Perhaps thats what the students were trying to cope with in Columbine too, given the curriculum?



I know he's over the top in many ways and some of them make me laugh, esp in SWM, but I cannot overlook the fact that he is seeking explanations for some pretty irrational behaviors.

[Sterling30sg]

But blaming the Colombine tragedy entirely on the availibilty of guns doesn't really do this tragedy and it's victims any real justice, it does promote the anti-gun agenda however, and thus large box office revenues, but he is only telling a very small fraction of the truth, in essense, he is using that small thread of truth to cover up the rest of the facts concerning this tragedy.



I don't buy that he wasn't aware of these other factors either. Obviously long hours of research had to go into the creation of this film.., he had to be aware of these other causes.

[HKRockChick]

there may be dozens of reasons why, but would it have happened to that extent if the kids didnt have easy access to guns and ammo? Would that much carnage have been wreaked if they only had kitchen knives?



His point is if people cannot control their knee jerk reactions, if they've been told that everyone is out to get them, and they can do anything to "defend" themselves, is it safe to allow them to freely buy guns? His message was quite clear: that gun culture in a paranoid society is not a very good idea.



I agree that some of his arguments arent balanced, but cannot rubbish everything else because of that.



This is another excerpt from the very interesting article you posted. Hard to believe they have this kind of curricula in schools.



"In 1988, the Atlantic Monthly published an investigative article entitled "Mortal Fears," which confirmed that death and dying courses are taught in "thousands of schools," often sneaked into health, social studies, literature or home economics courses without parents' knowledge. The article described how these courses require students to visit cemeteries and funeral homes, write their own epitaphs to be put on tombstones made out of construction paper, write obituaries, wills or suicide notes, decide how they would prefer to die, and plan their own funerals, body disposal and pallbearers.



In his Creative Writing class, Eric Harris wrote his will as one of his assignments, apparently indicating that death education is still alive at Columbine. A classmate told the Associated Press on April 22 that Harris and Klebold's writings were filled with gore and profanity. They had also made a video for a Government and Economics class in which they portrayed themselves as hit men hired out to do violence to athletes. According to the Washington Post (April 29), it culminated with the two "bludgeoning the head of a dum-my amid much fake blood."



While the teacher has refused to comment on the video, another student admitted that "every-body's video involved fighting," and that her own "contained sexual scenes."

Edited by: HKRockChick at: 12/2/03 1:18 am

[PLX180]

Quote:

---

I thought he was quite thought-provoking in the Bowling fC movie

---

That was a fascinating docu-film, but I found it's lack of conclusion frustrating.

[Sterling30sg]

And I too am not comfortable living in a society where guns are so easily availble, but they always have been and they weren't so recklessly used in the past., another point Moore ignores. He may have made an entertaining movie, but it just reeks of exploitation from my point of view.



And the link to prescription drug use for so-called diseases that cannot be verified by acceptable medical and scientific practices in every case from my recollection when these senseless tragedies occur cannot and should not be ignored.. There are reasons the medical histories are now being hidden when people go on these type of rampages, it's because prescribed drug use is a factor every time..



www.happinessonline.org/BeTemperate/p1.htm



Other school shooters on antidepressants at the time of their attacks include 15-year-old Kip Kinkel who, while on Prozac, killed his parents and then proceeded to school where he opened fire on classmates, killing two and wounding 22 others; 14-year-old Elizabeth Bush, on "antidepressants" when she wounded one student at Bishop Neumann High School in Williamsport, Pa.; and 18-year-old Jason Hoffman, on Effexor and Celexa when he wounded one teacher and three students at Granite Hills High School in El Cajon, Calif.



The medical histories of scores of "school shooters" have not been revealed, allegedly to protect the minor child. Ann Blake Tracy is a consultant in Taylor's lawsuit and director of the International Coalition for Drug Awareness. She holds a doctorate in biological psychology and is a specialist in what she believes are the adverse reactions to SSRI medications. She says Luvox caused Harris to go on the Columbine shooting spree and thinks the medical history of children who commit violent acts in school should be made public.