gitmo the gulog verses north vietnamese camps for usa...

[Rev9Volts]

For 5 months 'I stayed in the box'

By James H. Warner

June 29, 2005





As a Marine Corps officer, I spent five years and five months in a prisoner of war camp in North Vietnam. I believe this gives me a benchmark against which to measure the treatment which Sen. Richard Durbin, Illinois Democrat, complained of at the Camp of Detention for Islamo-fascists at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

The senator's argument is silly. If he believes what he has said his judgment is so poor that his countrymen, assuming, of course, that he considers us his countrymen, have no reason not to dismiss him as a witless boob. On the other hand, if he does not believe what he said, the other members of the Senate may wish to consider censure.

Consider nutrition. I have severe peripheral neuropathy in both legs as a residual of beriberi. I am fortunate. Some of my comrades suffer partial blindness or ischemic heart disease as a result of beriberi, a degenerate disease of peripheral nerves caused by a lack of thiamin, vitamin B-1. It is easily treated but is extremely painful.

Did Mr. Durbin say that some of the Islamo-fascist prisoners are suffering from beriberi? Actually, the diet enjoyed by the prisoners seems to be healthy. I saw the menu that Rep. Duncan Hunter presented a few days ago. It looks as though the food given the detainees at Guantanamo is wholesome, nutritious and appealing. I would be curious to hear Mr. Durbin explain how orange glazed chicken and rice pilaf can be compared to moldy bread laced with rat droppings.

In May 1969, I was taken out for interrogation on suspicion of planning an escape. I was forced to remain awake for long periods of time -- three weeks on one occasion.

On the first of June, I was put in a cement box with a steel door, which sat out in the tropical summer sun. There, I was put in leg irons which were then wired to a small stool. In this position I could neither sit nor stand comfortably. Within 10 days, every muscle in my body was in pain (here began a shoulder injury which is now inoperable). The heat was almost beyond bearing. My feet had swollen, literally, to the size of footballs. I cannot describe the pain. When they took the leg irons off, they had to actually dig them out of the swollen flesh. It was five days before I could walk, because the weight of the leg irons on my Achilles tendons had paralyzed them and hamstrung me. I stayed in the box from June 1 until Nov. 10, 1969. While in the box, I lost at least 30 pounds. I would be curious to hear Mr. Durbin explain how this compares with having a female invade my private space, and whether a box in which the heat nearly killed me is the same as turning up the air conditioning.

The detainees at Guantanamo receive new Korans and prayer rugs, and the guards are instructed not to disturb the inmates' prayers. Compare this with my experience in February 1971, when I watched as armed men dragged from our cell, successively, four of my cell mates after having led us in the Lord's Prayer. Their prayers were in defiance of a January 1971 regulation in which the Communists forbade any religious observances in our cells. Does Mr. Durbin somehow argue that our behavior is the equivalent of the behavior of the Communists?

Actually, I was one of the lucky ones. At another camp, during the time I was being interrogated in the summer of 1969, one man was tortured to death and several were severely beaten. In fact, according to Headquarters Marine Corps, 20 percent of my fellow Marines failed to survive captivity. Have 20 percent of the Islamo-fascists failed to survive Guantanamo?

The argument that detainees at Guantanamo are being treated badly is specious and silly. In the eyes of normal Americans, Democrats believe this argument because, as Jeanne Kirkpatrick said 20 years ago, they "always blame America first." This contributes to the increasing suspicion, in red states, a problem that Democrats are aware of and are trying to counter, that Democrats cannot be trusted with our national security. Only the Democrats can change this perception, most recently articulated by White House adviser Karl Rove. The ball is in their court and I am certain there are steps that they can take to change this perception, but making silly arguments about imaginary bad treatment of enemy detainees is not a move in the right direction.



James H. Warner is corporate counsel practicing intellectual property law in Northern Virginia. He served as domestic policy adviser during the second Reagan administration.

Tony Blankey's column will appear tomorrow.

[NRKofOver]

What relevance does this have to Gitmo at all?



The Vietnamese POW camps were atrocious, inhumane and morally bankrupt. But that doesn't mean that as long as we don't go that far, we're doing a fine job. IMO, we have an obligation as Americans to set the highest standards of behavior in these situations and it doesn't seem as though we've really worked to insure that at Gitmo.

My music for the disenchanted masses

[Galmin]

Well, it seems obvious that Mr Warner shows us a classic Freudian Projection.



"A defense mechanism in which the individual attributes to other people impulses and traits that he himself has but cannot accept. It is especially likely to occur when the person lacks insight into his own impulses and traits."

[Rev9Volts]

Remember the Geneva Conventions apply to: uniformed military combatants. The Geneva Conventions do *not* apply to ununiformed terrorists. They never have and never will.



In fact, we as a nation could condemn and summarily execute every one of those "detainees" and be fully within the bounds of international laws and treaties. They are not subject to US laws because they are not American citizens.



To be protected you have to follow the rules as we do in combat. The truth is they really should be shot, but you know dang well we aren't about to do that...



My question to you is what should we do with them? and before you answer .......remember they have not surrendered or ceased hostilities against the US and our allies

[NRKofOver]

you're kidding me, right?



If due process is the standard of behavior that we afford all citizens of the US, why shouldn't we extend that to 'enemy combatants'?



Only some humans are entitled to 'inalienable rights'?



As far as what to do with them, they are people who have supposedly committed crimes against the United States. If that's true, try them, convict them and put them in jail. Don't hold them indefinitely while utilizing questionable tactics of interrogation. It's like the people in Gitmo are no longer human beings, they're just people who hate us, so to hell with their rights as humans. That is truly sad.



If our Constitution is the symbol of what humans deserve when it comes to treatment from the power structure, let's not limit it to just Americans, if it's good enough for us, it's good enough for everyone, American citizen or not.



Basically, you're justifying inhumane, stressful, tortuous treatment of American prisoners at the hands of those combatants if the tables are turned. If we can do it, so can they. I'd prefer the high road regardless of what they are doing. I mean, why not just go the distance, they behead hostages, let's just start beheading the Gitmo detainees and see how it goes over. Terrorists, thugs and murderers are continually disparaged (here in the US and abroad) because of their inhumane behavior, let's keep that line clear, they're horrible people and we don't have to be.

My music for the disenchanted masses

[Galmin]

Rev



You really shouldn't copy and paste everything MC and Spike writes. They know Jack Shite.

[Rev9Volts]

works for me

Edited by: Rev9Volts at: 6/30/05 18:51

[Rev9Volts]

as you know it is not always easy being a troll....

[Rev9Volts]

i stiil say off with their heads...

[RonOnGuitar]

Check out my "terrorist's gourmet dining at gitmo" thread, Rev.

A sample:



Sunday: Pancake breakfast, Baked Chicken Breast in broth

Monday: Scambled egg breakfast, Seasoned Beef Patty

Tuesday: Garlic Mashed potatoes, Lemon baked Fish

Wednesday: Honey Glazed Chicken

Thursday: Mustard Dill Baked fish, Tandouri Chicken Breast

Friday: Steamed Corn and Ginger Beef Patty

Saturday: Fish Amandine, Steamed Broccoli, Oven Browned Potatoes

[Galmin]

Real torture for Ron starts with withholding the Broccoli and Browned Potatoes.

[NRKofOver]

I'm confused, as long as you get to eat good food it's ok to withhold civil liberties indefinitely?

My music for the disenchanted masses

[ans]

From REASON:



"Gitmo exists to be the boogeyman of counterterror operations, the place to which "bad men" will be sent. It actually helps the administration for Gitmo to be feared and even a little notorious, otherwise why would terror suspects rounded up in, say, Pakistan spill any secrets unless it was to avoid a long sentence in the American gulag?"







* * *





It's good they eat well, but don't spread it around. Gitmo has an image to maintain