Dismayed Americans contemplate Canada

[MIKE BURN]

Quote:

---

Dismayed Americans contemplate Canada



Saturday, July 19, 2003 Posted: 9:49 PM EDT (0149 GMT)



NEW YORK (AP) -- For all they share economically and culturally, Canada and the United States are increasingly at odds on basic social policies -- to the point that at least a few discontented Americans are planning to move north and try their neighbors' way of life.



A husband and wife in Minnesota, a college student in Georgia, a young executive in New York. Though each has distinct motives for packing up, they agree the United States is growing too conservative and believe Canada offers a more inclusive, less selfish society.



"For me, it's a no-brainer," said Mollie Ingebrand, a puppeteer from Minneapolis who plans to go to Vancouver with her lawyer husband and 2-year-old son.



"It's the most amazing opportunity I can imagine. To live in a society where there are different priorities in caring for your fellow citizens."



For decades, even while nurturing close ties with the United States, Canadians have often chosen a different path -- establishing universal health care, maintaining ties with Cuba, imposing tough gun control laws. Two current Canadian initiatives, to decriminalize marijuana and legalize same-sex marriage, have pleased many liberals in the United States and irked conservatives.



New York executive Daniel Hanley, 31, was arranging a move for himself and his partner, Tony, long before the Canadian announcement about same-sex marriage. But the timing delights him; he and Tony now hope to marry in front of their families after they emigrate to British Columbia.



"Canada has an opportunity to define itself as a leader," Hanley said. "In some ways, it's now closer to American ideals than America is."



Though many gay American couples are now marrying in Canada, virtually all return home, hoping court rulings will lead to official recognition of their unions.



Hanley's situation is different because Tony -- a Southeast Asian -- is not a U.S. citizen. The men worried that Tony could be forced to leave the United States after his student visa expires in two years: They were elated when Canada's immigration agency said they could move there as partners.



Hanley, who works for a Fortune 500 company in Manhattan, doesn't know how the move will affect his career.



"It's a challenge, it's scary," he said. "We'll have to drop everything we know here, go up there and figure it out."



Thomas Hodges, a computer systems major at Georgia State University, said his dismay with American politics started him thinking last year about going abroad. He recently wrote an article in a campus journal titled, "Why I Am Moving To Canada."



"I'm thinking about Toronto, though I hear it's cold up there," Hodges, a lifelong Southerner, said in a telephone interview.



Hodges, 21, complained about a "neo-conservative shift" in the United States and praised Canada's approach to health care and education.



"The U.S. educational system is unfair -- you have to live in certain areas to go to good schools," he said.



Rene Mercier, spokesman for Canada's immigration department, said any upsurge in U.S.-to-Canada immigration based on current political developments won't be detectable for a few years, because of the time required to process residency applications.



During the Vietnam War, U.S. emigration to Canada surged as thousands of young men, often accompanied by wives or girlfriends, moved to avoid the draft. But every year since 1977, more Canadians have emigrated to the United States than vice versa -- the 2001 figures were 5,894 Americans moving north, 30,203 Canadians moving south.



Mollie Ingebrand, 34, said she has felt an affinity for Canada for many years, fueled partly by respect for its health care system. Her doubts about the United States go back even further, to a childhood spent with liberal parents in a relatively conservative part of Ohio.



"In school I was always told this is the best country on earth, and everyone else wants to be American, and that never really rang true to me," she said. "As I got older, it occurred to me there were other choices."



Her husband, George, 44, has spent little time in Canada, but said it seems to offer a more relaxed, less competitive way of life. He has no qualms about leaving his law practice and selling the family's upscale home in Minneapolis.



"I don't idealize Canada the way my wife does, but I'm ready for an adventure," he said. "I don't know what I'm going to be facing. That's what I'm reveling in."



The Ingebrands have completed the first batch of paperwork to apply for Canadian residency, hoping their talents and finances compensate for lack of specific job offers. As Minnesotans, they look forward to Vancouver's wet but mild climate: "Green all year, no mosquitos," Mollie said.



At Georgia State, Hodges said some conservative schoolmates have challenged his proposed move to Canada, saying he would be abandoning his homeland.



Conversely, Mollie Ingebrand says some of her friends -- people who share her left-of-center views -- argue that she should stay at home to battle for changes here.



"I've been there and done that," Molly said. "I don't want to stay and fight anymore. I can have that bittersweet love for my country from somewhere else."

---

[Rev9Volts]

many more move to europe. who cares mike. over the years many more have left germany for america. especially women. could it be german women like american more than german men? bless your heart...

[MIKE BURN]

This thread was not about immigrating people from Germany to the USA.



However, can you backup your claims?



I say: Never before since 1933, the German immigrant

rate towards the USA was so extremely low.

[Rev9Volts]

i will let you do the work check the stats of people who left germany for america from 1935 to 1950.



they will be back. the winters are too cold.

[MIKE BURN]

You better do the work and come back to the initial topic of this thread, instead of creating "workarounds" to avoid confrontation with a very actual phenomenon.

[Rev9Volts]

i learned the workarounds from you. remember the pics of the drawing and quartering. you know many hollywood types threatened to move to france or europe in general if gwb was elected. none did.

[LarreeMP3]

No one I know is in any hurry to move out of the country.

[Rev9Volts]

me neither. buthtat is not the point larry. the point is they try to make it look america is so evil people are flocking out of the country.

[NRKofOver]

I don't know about 'flocking' but you do have to wonder why some people would decide that America is less than the 'greatest country in the world'. Instead of worrying about the appearance, I think as a nation we do have to consider the idea that many American's don't like this country and start addressing the things that bother them.



If I could leave I would. Unfortunately just about every country follows an American immigration approach and it's not very easy to just relocate to another country.



I've asked over and over about so many of these issues and so few people even respond. But in the US our social mores seem to create more problems than they solve (abstinence only education for example). The use of the word 'freedom' is pretty random, oftentimes true freedom can only be experienced in other countries. Our educational system is continually shown to be weak compared to the systems of other countries (and oddly most of the countries outperforming us have public school systems that seem to work). We have higher incident rates of alcholism, drug abuse, abortions, teenage pregnancies and violent crime than any other westernized nation. We have more of our people in jail than any European nation. We have broad economic disparity (in the richest country in the world) that grows greater everyday.



Until these elements are actually looked at as pieces in the pie that question our 'greatest-nation-in-the-world' status, people will still be discontent enough to with they didn't live here. Just because millions in Mexico would come here doesn't mean that it's the greatest place, it only means it's better than living in Mexico.

Read all about ME!

Edited by: NRKofOver at: 7/23/03 2:08 am

[RonOnGuitar]

Quote:

---

However, can you backup your claims?

---

Actually, that's pretty easy, Mike. Here's a pdf file that details immigration by country during 1820-1998 Immigration, by country, 1920-1998. American is a nation made of entirely of people who left other countries - mostly western Europe. That's not counting the Native Americans - "Indians" - who were here before anyone.



As you can see from the pdf file, the total of those who left Germany during those years is over 7,000,000. In the last year in these records , 1998, nearly 7000 Germans came to the US for a chance at a better life. (You can also add in all the Germans who decided to leave Germany for America before 1820 and those leaving Germany after 1998.)



You can certainly hunt down rare instances where a small number of kooks and/or cowards will leave the US for Canada - and that's why it is *news*; it is so rare. For millions to leave Europe for a better life in America is not at all news, it is an ongoing fact of life.



Ron

[guidosdad]

People who are dismayed with America are simply egomaniacs who can't stand living in a country where their world view isn't shared by everyone in the land. The truth is, the United States is neither conservative nor liberal; it's simply free. Individuals reign supreme in the United States, and these individuals all have a right to speak their minds--from leather homosexual daddies to Southern Baptists. Do you really think there are no conservatives in the Marxist canada? Of course there are. They just aren't permited to express themselves. So much for liberty, right? Liberty is fine as long as it's only YOU who is free. Those too intolerant to live beside someone with an opposing view from theirs are the ones who do most the belly aching. They talk about celebrating diversity, but only if it's physical. Intellectual diversity they cannot tolerate. Move to canada. Live in the collective utopia of sameness and psuedo-multi-culturalism. Those of us who just want to be individuals among many individuals will stay in the good old USA. Addios, commrades!!

[guidosdad]

canada's universal healthcare system is a disaster. They have year long wait lists just to get mamograms. Just as Winston Churchill said, socialism is about spreading not the wealth, but spreading the misery. You know what it's like to get service from a government employee in the United States? Ever been to the Moter Vehicle Administration in any state? Now imagine your physician behaving with the same apathy toward their job. That's right, universal healthcare means all doctors in canada are government employees. Scary! Now just imagine when they go on strike like they do in Britain every other year. And as far as American socialists rushing off to canada--why not rush off to China or Cuba? Got something against people of color? Or perhaps you really don't want to cut all ties with the "evil" United States.

[Galmin]

Kooks, cowards and egomaniacs?



This thread is a bleeding joke.

[guidosdad]

Let's face it, anti-Americanism is a a disease of the mind. These American haters don't just believe that America can do only wrong, they believe, as based on the teachings of their socialist church, that ONLY America can do wrong. There lies the horror of it all. Criticisms of the United States are so irrational and wrought with mystical religious rantings these days, one has to wonder if they human race is capable of sustaining itself based on such hysterical doctrines. I suppose when you compare a nation to utopian societies that do not exists anywhere on earth, then of course America looks horrible. But compared to the real world, the United States wins hands down. The man in the article was right; his wife idolizing canada for things she doesn't even understand--in her mind, like in the mind of the religious zealot, any socialist society on earth is the promise land. And what makes canada all the better is that it shares a 3,000 mile border with the United States. One thing for sure, at least these American socialists are putting their money where their feet our. It's about time these socialists quit being such hypocrites. If only more of them would move.....

[DreamTone7]

guidosdad - "Those too intolerant to live beside someone with an opposing view from theirs are the ones who do most the belly aching. They talk about celebrating diversity, but only if it's physical. Intellectual diversity they cannot tolerate."



That about sums it up. They need to be reminded that America is a democracy.



For the perpetually dissatisfied, the grass is always greener on the other side of the hill (or border).