Today is Butler-day

Galmin · The King has spoken! Joined: 30 Dec 2001 Posts: 1711

Let's hope it's not another whitewash.

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

Why don't you let Mr. Butler speak before you deliver his verdict, Mr. Galmin. :ft

Galmin · The King has spoken! Joined: 30 Dec 2001 Posts: 1711

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Why don't you let Mr. Butler speak before you deliver his verdict

I will and I am. I merely expressed my hopes for it. Is that forbidden?

RonOnGuitar · Joined: 08 Jan 2003 Posts: 1916

I'll have to give my butler the day off then?

Maybe I should "Ask Jeeves" about this.....

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

Galmin - I guess it got lost in the translation. Maybe I should have said, "...before you deliver his verdict for him!"...or maybe "...before you give him his verdict to deliver!"

Point being that you have already decided what is right and wrong rather than let Mr. Butler do it for us. You are looking for vindication...not a decision.

Galmin · The King has spoken! Joined: 30 Dec 2001 Posts: 1711

Quote:
Galmin - I guess it got lost in the translation. Maybe I should have said, "...before you deliver his verdict for him!"...or maybe "...before you give him his verdict to deliver!"

Point being that you have already decided what is right and wrong rather than let Mr. Butler do it for us. You are looking for vindication...not a decision.

Nothing of the sort. You try to see something that isn't there.

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

Galmin - "Let's hope this is not another Whitewash"

Sounds like you already made up your mind to me. Maybe it's lost in the translation...but when you refer to one possible outcome as being a "whitewash", you are in effect saying that that one verdict cannot be a valid one. In other words, you have already made your mind up that the opposing verdict is correct...and in your mind, is the only acceptable valid verdict. Certainly everyone can make up their own mind...but it does high-light where a persons bias is at when they refer to one possible outcome as a "whitewash".

Galmin · The King has spoken! Joined: 30 Dec 2001 Posts: 1711

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Sounds like you already made up your mind to me. Maybe it's lost in the translation...but when you refer to one possible outcome as being a "whitewash", you are in effect saying that that one verdict cannot be a valid one.

There are many possible outcomes (or rather were, since the Butler Report was made official 2 hours ago).

You seem to believe there were only two possible outcomes.

How quaint.

A whitewash is a whitewash, all other outcomes are not.

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In other words, you have already made your mind up that the opposing verdict is correct...and in your mind, is the only acceptable valid verdict.

Here is were you go wrong.

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Certainly everyone can make up their own mind...but it does high-light where a persons bias is at when they refer to one possible outcome as a "whitewash".

Why don't we concentrate our energy on the actual report now that it's official?

What are your thoughts on Sir Butlers verdict?

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

I don't have any major problems with it...except to say that Butler has always historically preferred hard evidence as opposed the what we call HUMINT (Human Intelligence). This turns the whole thing into a court of law where "evidence" is now required before taking action, and the words of people are reduced even further down the chain of "acceptable evidence". I think evidence from people must be carefully weighed, but not rejected outright. HUMINT, according to operators, is quite often the best source of intelligence that there is. Without it, very little action against anybody could be vindicated...whether it was justified or not.

Galmin · The King has spoken! Joined: 30 Dec 2001 Posts: 1711

HUMINT

Good theme, I'd like to explore it for a while in regard of Iraq.

What the "coalition of the willing" presented prior to the war (in, for instance, U.N.) was not raw HUMINT, but thoroughly selected HUMINT to support an agenda.

Fact is, harder evidence existed to take Colin Powells speech (where he presented, as later evident, everything he had) at the UN down point by point in virtually no time whatsoever and still noone that counted in the willing coalition seemed to ponder if, in fact, the track selected may be the wrong way (well, there were a few serfs who cleared their desks but that was about all there was).

I think HUMINT is important.

I think a multitude of HUMINT sources are important and should have been explored (the HUMINT [many Iraqi scientists inside and outside of Iraq] who said in the wake of the war that the WMD were all discontinued. This HUMINT was ignored. It was not the only one.) Instead of relying on more or less one person who hadn't been in Iraq for a very long time.