Iraq prisoner abuse by U.S. soldiers

[MIKE BURN]

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BBC/London, Friday, 30 April, 2004, 03:17 GMT 04:17 UK



A US TV channel showed pictures of US soldiers humiliating naked hooded prisoners at Baghdad's Abu Ghraib jail.







CBS TV says it has "dozens" of pictures showing a wide range of maltreatment. Taken by US troops, many of the pictures from Abu Ghraib, outside Baghdad, show American troops watching in apparent approval.







The US military says it is appalled by the behaviour of its soldiers, but insists this is an isolated case.



However, the fact that Americans may have humiliated Iraqis in the very prison where Saddam Hussein's regime tortured inmates will be badly received not only in Iraq, but across the region, says the BBC's Ian Pannell in Washington.



Shocking pictures



CBS said the army investigation had concluded that Gen Karpinski's "lack of leadership and clear standards" led to problems in Abu Ghraib and three other prisons for which she was responsible.



CBS said the pictures it obtained showed a wide range of abuses.







It said among them were images of prisoners with wires attached to their genitals, a dog attacking an inmate, prisoners being forced to simulate having sex with each other, and one detainee with an abusive word written on his body.







Last month, the army announced that 17 soldiers had been suspended over the allegations of abuse of prisoners. Six of them - military police - are facing court martial.

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[Seismic Anamoly]

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(CBS) Last month, the U.S. Army announced 17 soldiers in Iraq, including a brigadier general, had been removed from duty after charges of mistreating Iraqi prisoners.



But the details of what happened have been kept secret, until now.



It turns out photographs surfaced showing American soldiers abusing and humiliating Iraqis being held at a prison near Baghdad. The Army investigated, and issued a scathing report.



Now, an Army general and her command staff may face the end of long military careers. And six soldiers are facing court martial in Iraq -- and possible prison time.



On Tuesday, 60 Minutes II asked Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, deputy director of coalition operations in Iraq, what went wrong.



“Frankly, I think all of us are disappointed by the actions of the few,” says Kimmitt. “Every day, we love our soldiers, but frankly, some days we're not always proud of our soldiers."



60 Minutes II talked about the prison and shared pictures of what Americans did there with two men who have extensive interrogation experience: Former Marine Lt. Col. Bill Cowan and former CIA Bureau Chief Bob Baer.



"I visited Abu Ghraib a couple of days after it was liberated. It was the most awful sight I've ever seen. I said, ‘If there's ever a reason to get rid of Saddam Hussein, it's because of Abu Ghraib,'” says Baer. “There were bodies that were eaten by dogs, torture. You know, electrodes coming out of the walls. It was an awful place."



60 Minutes II was only able to contact one of the soldiers facing charges. But the Army says they are all in Iraq, awaiting court martial.



"What can the Army say specifically to Iraqis and others who are going to see this and take it personally," Rather asked Kimmitt, in an interview conducted by satellite from Baghdad.



"The first thing I’d say is we’re appalled as well. These are our fellow soldiers. These are the people we work with every day, and they represent us. They wear the same uniform as us, and they let their fellow soldiers down,” says Kimmitt.



“Our soldiers could be taken prisoner as well. And we expect our soldiers to be treated well by the adversary, by the enemy. And if we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect … We can't ask that other nations to that to our soldiers as well."



“So what would I tell the people of Iraq? This is wrong. This is reprehensible. But this is not representative of the 150,000 soldiers that are over here,” adds Kimmitt. “I'd say the same thing to the American people... Don't judge your army based on the actions of a few."

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Sad that there are always a few scumbags in the mix...but there always are. They're getting their due, and it will be too good for them.



The actions of 17 soldiers doesn't make it policy for the entire U.S. military, or any other military for that matter.



Unfortunately, some people will interpret it that way.

[MIKE BURN]

The pictures have made headlines

in the European press.

[DreamTone7]

An honest question, Mike. Is the European media as equally quick to air their own dirty laundry, and does it make the front page in the same way as US dirty laundry?



If not, you should be aware that that is the impression that you are giving here on this board.

[MIKE BURN]

Look at the headlines.



ENGLISH.



Those are BRITISH newspapers.



Great Britain is the biggest "ally" of the U.S.

in this unlawful and unjustified war.



The U.S. were claiming a "just" cause and that they

"free" the people there. The U.S. claim to be a democratic

'helper', going by all means with the Geneva convention.



That's the message you should get.



As a German I knew already about the mass rapings in

Germany performed by U.S. soldiers in1945, those who "freed"

my country.

[DreamTone7]

...just as the Germans did to the French and Russians and just about every other country they ever invaded in that particular war...only to a much greater extent, according to history. So your point was?



But then, you evaded my question...didn't you.

[MIKE BURN]

My point was that the U.S. don't miss any chance to throw

the first stone ad present themselves as the holy keepers of

world peace.



There is a Geneva convention and you can't say "Saddam

was" evil while U.S. military leaders tolerate this kind of

prisoner abuse. They are all playing in the same league.



I mean what's the status of "control" there inside

the U.S. military or U.S. leadership?



I also do think, that this soert of abuse is the result

of wrong U.S. propaganda.



Soldiers may see in every Iraqi child, man, woman,

TERRORISTS and therefore think they deserve every

treatment.

[Seismic Anamoly]

...using this logic, the action of 17 soldiers means that ALL 150,000 soldiers would act exactly like them??



Well then, I guess ALL German police officers are murderers, torturers, and crooks...different scenario, same practices, albeit within the Political arena...



ARTICLE

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There is a persistent pattern of alleged ill-treatment and excessive use of force by police officers in Germany according to a new report by Amnesty International. The human rights organization is calling on the German government to establish without delay an independent body to examine complaints of serious police misconduct.



"There is a very real danger that these practices result in police officers getting away with committing human rights violations. Even in cases of prima facie evidence of torture it has sometimes taken years for the alleged perpetrators to be brought to justice."

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Of course, they ALL aren't. That's a fool's logic...and the World is overflowing with Fools; most of them running Nations and the Media.



"Hey, if it boosts the Economy or increases Sales and Profit, do it or print it; Dirty Laundry is a GOOD thing; for our BOTTOM LINE."

[MIKE BURN]

The German police officers were not acting while invading and occupying another country, to start with the biggest difference here. They were "overdoing" as border patrols,

facing thousands of illegal immigrants everyday.





I think this is a huge blow for the reputation and

professionalism of the US military and it needs to

be publicly dealt with. Foremost the actions of these

at least 17 American soldiers were far from being

constructive for the situation there.

[DreamTone7]

That sort of thing never is constructive...nor is the banter raised about it.

[Seismic Anamoly]

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I think this is a huge blow for the reputation and

professionalism of the US military......

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Agreed, with the exception that considering there were 17 soldiers involved, I don't think "huge"...once again, you can't judge the character and professionalism of the entire body based on the actions of a few. If you do that, then there's no body in the entire World, be it military, government, whatever, that couldn't and wouldn't be considered corrupt or unprofessional. There's no excuse for what they did, but it doesn't reflect on the entire military.

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...it needs to be publicly dealt with.

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Their punishment will be much more severe from a military tribunal than from a civilian court; bank on that. Scumbag civilian lawyers love these kinds of cases; they won't get a chance to make a name for themselves using this. And you can bet the Press will keep everyone well informed...oh, yes...must sell, sell, sell those papers, magazines, etc.!!

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Foremost the actions of these at least 17 American soldiers were far from being constructive for the situation there.

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Totally agree...that's why at least 6 are being court-martialed, including a General.



And So It Goes.....

[MIKE BURN]

This interesting info just rushed in:

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BBC / London



CBS News said it delayed the broadcast for two weeks after a request from the Pentagon due to the tensions in Iraq.



"I didn't like it one bit," President Bush said in Washington.



The people who are alleged to have carried out the abuse "do not reflect the nature of men and women we sent overseas", Mr Bush added.



The president has known about the allegations of misconduct "for a while", a spokesman said earlier.

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[Seismic Anamoly]

As I've stated previously...



Republican and Democratic Parties...they both Suck!!

[MIKE BURN]

NEXT QUOTE!



(quote war here

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BBC /London



One of the suspended soldiers, Staff Sergeant Chip Frederick, said the way the army ran the prison had led to the abuse.



"We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things... like rules and regulations," he told CBS. "It just wasn't happening."

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[MIKE BURN]

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WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Three American soldiers have been discharged from military service for abusing Iraqi prisoners, the U.S. Army said Monday.



The soldiers had been facing a court-martial proceeding, but agreed instead to a nonjudicial one. In addition to the discharges, two soldiers had their ranks lowered, and all three were ordered to forfeit pay for two months.

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