And now for something...

[DreamTone7]

...completely different:

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Europeans Reach Deal on Structure for Defense

New York Times 11/30/03

author: International Herald Tribune

c. 2003 New York Times Company







NAPLES, Italy, Nov. 29 -- Britain, France and Germany have struck a deal on a common European defense, including a guarantee of mutual assistance and a scaled-back plan for a headquarters, officials said.



That progress, announced Friday, came as negotiators struggled to reconcile views on Europe's constitution, particularly the voting system giving suitable weights to larger and smaller members. A spokesman for the British Foreign Office said it was consulting with "key allies" -- a reference to Washington -- before proposing the document to the wider group of European Union countries.



Earlier Friday, ministers discussed whether Europe's constitution would have a reference to Christianity in its preamble. The reference is supported by Poland and Italy, among others, and strongly opposed by France. Franco Frattini, the Italian foreign minister, said he had proposed a compromise that would refer both to Europe's "Christian roots" and to its "secular institutions."



The proposal on defense includes three major elements, according to excerpts of the document that were published in Le Monde: The European Union would begin a system where only select countries could take part in a common defense; the constitution would have a clause guaranteeing mutual assistance in case of attack; and a unit would handle operations and planning.



There was no reference to a headquarters, to avoid the impression that the military structure could compete with NATO.

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What's interesting to me is that Christianity is still part of the equation. I would have thought, based on the attitudes towards it by most of the members of this board, that the mention of Christianity would have been out of the question. I guess it shows how much I know.









Edit: Here's the part I would find a little scary for some of the less well represented countries: "The European Union would begin a system where only select countries could take part in a common defense..."

Edited by: DreamTone7  at: 12/2/03 2:17 pm

[Galmin]

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What's interesting to me is that Christianity is still part of the equation. I would have thought, based on the attitudes towards it by most of the members of this board, that the mention of Christianity would have been out of the question. I guess it shows how much I know.

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Well, that Italy would support such an idea is not surprising, considering where the Vatican state is situated. The same could be said about Poland, since the current Pope is polish of origin.



It is still being discussed, but not going to stick.

Quote:

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Edit: Here's the part I would find a little scary for some of the less well represented countries: "The European Union would begin a system where only select countries could take part in a common defense..."

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It's not about how well represented they are but more about how well they represent themselves, in the area of Human Rights, etc.





Just my 2 € cent.

[DreamTone7]

Galmin - "It's not about how well represented they are but more about how well they represent themselves, in the area of Human Rights, etc."



I understand what you're saying...but to exclude poeple from the right to defend themselves for whatever reason is still a set-up for trouble down the road. I'd be happier to see what you said spelled out in their Constitution, with measurable gains in their respective deficient areas set as goals for them to achieve before being allowed to partake in the defense force. In the US, states had trouble with the original Constitution as well. The Bill of Rights had to be added before all the states agreed to ratify it. Not all countries in Europe having an equal say in their Constitution might prevent something like this from happening there. Like I said, seems like the seeds of trouble may be already sown.

[AQUARIAN AGE]

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"The European Union would begin a system where only select countries could take part in a common defense..."

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My first thought was....of course, cause some European countries are neutral!

[Galmin]

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to exclude poeple from the right to defend themselves for whatever reason is still a set-up for trouble down the road

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Every country has the right to defend itself, it's right there in the UN Charter.

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In the US, states had trouble with the original Constitution as well. The Bill of Rights had to be added before all the states agreed to ratify it. Not all countries in Europe having an equal say in their Constitution might prevent something like this from happening there. Like I said, seems like the seeds of trouble may be already sown.

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Yes. You might be on to something there.





I am sceptic to the whole business as such. Could this developement be the fruit of previous NATO demands linked to a recent pre-emtive strike in the guise of legitimate request for "Operation Enduring Freedom" (The War On Terror)?

Where's the need (other than France yearning to be a superpower)? If the need is to cut costs then it would be intriguing (as one good, well trained and vast force being cheaper than twentysome so-so, average-to-small forces with rudimentary training).



I am still a sceptic.