The US government....

[memphis mike]

and protection from....are state militia's a good or bad idea?

Do the US citizens believe the fedral govt. could turn on its people? The answer is yes. It already did at Kent State...

This is the reason our constitution allows us the "right to bear arms". Is this outdated and all weapons should be confiscated?

[NRKofOver]

I am a believer in freedom. I don't think guns should be seized. However, from a purely philosophical position, I believe people who have the need to own a gun are terribly weak (spiritually and mentally) and don't understand the value of being 'safe' without any kind of firearm. And yes, I understand without guns that maybe the government would change our world to whatever they want, and that's ok, I would be killed speaking out against it and wouldn't have to live in it.





As far as militia's go, if they were actually organized in a way that was sensible, I wouldn't mind, to each his own. But unfortunately the militia thing in our country has become a haven for tax evaders, racists, theocracy advocates, and on and on. They aren't interested in 'protecting' the Constitution, they are interested in creating a government based on their own Constitutional interpretation. I really believe that the militia movement is the hidden terrorist that rarely gets press and is a true threat to the average American. They're a little harder to see and you definitely can't profile them with just an image, but I'm pretty sure no one really cares in our government. If there are examples of 'militias' that exist that are interested in a universal, accepting freedom, I'd love to read about them. Unfortunately I only have read about racist, hateful, bigoted people who want to 'protect' this nation for their own selfish interests.

Read all about ME!

[memphis mike]

as far as the militia's go, I agree...I'm really talking about a true state militia and not the T. McVeigh types, Posse Comitatus or similar groups. Weapons, some peolple collect them like I collect guitars and who I'm I to take away their hobby. I believe in a tougher registration system. I believe the NRA is in an uproar over nothing. No one is going to take away their right to own a gun. As far as a defensive weapon...a person living in a house with a gun is more likely to be killed by that gun than be protected from someone else......

[debbie mannas]

"a person living in a house with a gun is more likely to be killed by that gun than be protected from someone else...... "



Oh absolutely, either them or their kids will use it. I seem to recall having read some stats to prove this too, a couple of months ago.



My dads friend (ex-army) kept guns in his home. His son blew his head off (intentionally). After that the friend tried to get my dad to keep the gun. My mom had fifty fits.

[questionnaire]

Most discussions on this board seem to carry on in the total absence of evidence. Opinions, beliefs, principles, hunches and speculations abound, but evidence is minimal.



To be candid, I'm getting sick and tired of listening to what people 'believe'. I want to know what they know, beyond reasonable doubt, about the issues of guns and gun control.



Here's a starter. It is an INDISPUTABLE FACT that North America has the highest murder RATE (remember a previous discussion?) in the industrialized West. It is FACT that Europe and Japan have very low murder rates in comparison.



It's also highly likely that one of the principle reasons behind this low murder rate is that European and Japanese authorities systematically disarmed their populations between the 14th and 19th centuries. It's interesting to note that the disarmament of the English population began with the ruling aristocracy, because their tradition of exercizing 'righteous violence' in defence of property and honour hampered the development of property law and the commodity market.



Voluntary disarmament is part of the Hobbesian 'social contract', in which we are persuaded to give up a certain amount of our freedom to a democratically elected authority in order to enjoy a more civilized existence. Does anyone here detect amongst certain factions of the North American population a reluctance to engage in such a social contract in the name of some half-baked idealistic notion of 'personal freedom'?



Steve H

[DreamTone7]

YES I DO! IN ME TOO! And you stated in your post some of the reasons why.



I don't know about Europe, but I know that in Japan, the conviction rate for those arrested is very high....around 98% or so. This means that when people in Japan see cops, they behave themselves unless they want to go to jail....and the cops there are everywhere. Not so here in the US. Add to that the fact that most major US cities have had the number of Police officers on the streets (per capita) actually drop dramatically in the past 20 years. Fewer Police and fewer convictions are the reason for the high crime rate....not guns. If you make it a crime to have guns, the criminals will still have them, so what is the difference?



I can understand somebody trying to make a case against the right to bear arms in the US based on the number of domestic unjuries/deaths that result from home-owned firearms, but not because of the crime rate. The crime rate is only a symptom of a much larger and more dangerous malady that the US is suffering from. I wish that problem would be addressed, rather than trying to "band-aid" the symptoms.



And lastly, I don't trust our government, based on the afformentioned facts, to do a good job of preventing crime. Now you want me to give up (to that same government) the right to defend myself with firearms? I don't think so. If the government had things under control, I MIGHT consider it (but probably not).

[memphis mike]

I listed several facts-the national guard fired on and killed it's own citizens, the NRA has it's panties in a wad over nothing, gun control laws have to be more stringent. I gave the reason behind the consitution's "right to bear arms" clause in case anyone wondered and it is a fact that a handgun in the home is more likely to kill you than save you. I don't just believe this, it's all facts.....you must have been talking about someone else.....



now go write a paper on it and you can quote me as usual!

[Galmin]

Quote:

---

I know that in Japan, the conviction rate for those arrested is very high....around 98% or so. This means that when people in Japan see cops, they behave themselves unless they want to go to jail....and the cops there are everywhere. Not so here in the US. Add to that the fact that most major US cities have had the number of Police officers on the streets (per capita) actually drop dramatically in the past 20 years.

---

When looking into People per police officer/Nation/Murder rate statistics from 1991 [US Bureau of Justice Statistics] (anyone got an updated version?) I found this:





People per police officer



1 Italy 286

2 Greece 303

3 Sweden 328

4 Canada 358

5 United Kingdom 400

6 United States 459

7 Australia 462

8 Austria 466

9 Ireland 489

10 Netherlands 553

11 Japan 556

12 Belgium 586

13 Denmark 594

14 Portugal 624

15 France 632

16 Finland 643

17 Norway 661

18 Spain 862





Murder rate (per 100,000 people)



1 United States 8.40

2 Canada 5.45

3 Denmark 5.17

4 France 4.60

5 Portugal 4.50

6 Australia 4.48

7 Germany 4.20

8 Belgium 2.80

9 Spain 2.28

10 Switzerland 2.25

11 Italy 2.18

12 Norway 1.99

13 United Kingdom 1.97

14 Austria 1.80

15 Greece 1.76

16 Sweden 1.73

17 Japan 1.20

18 Ireland 0.96

19 Finland 0.70





Murder rate for males age 15-24 (per 100,000 people)



1 United States 24.4

2 Canada 2.6

3 Sweden 2.3

4 Norway 2.3

5 Finland 2.3

6 Denmark 2.2

7 United Kingdom 2.0

8 Netherlands 1.2

9 Germany 0.9

10 Japan 0.5



-------------------------------



Has anyone got a comparison of convictionrate per capita/nation from the 90's? I can only find a comparison inclusing the US, England and Wales 81-96 [98].

Quote:

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..most major US cities have had the number of Police officers on the streets (per capita) actually drop dramatically in the past 20 years.Fewer Police and fewer convictions are the reason for the high crime rate....not guns

---

Serious violent crime levels declined since 1993 [Key Crime & Justice Facts at a Glance, BJS]





Something to read..



Firearms and Crimes of Violence, BJS 2/94



German and American Prosecutions: An approach to Statistical Comparison BJS 5/98



What was it that Charlton Heston said about mixed ethnicity again?

[memphis mike]

btw, one culture countries such as japan tend to have much lower crime than multi-cultured countries such as the USA...

and that is a fact!

[Galmin]

That didn't take very long.

[questionnaire]

Galmin's table suggests that DT's notion that more police per capita is not the answer. Recent and long duree historical analysis also suggests very strongly that harsher punishment is not a solution in the medium-term. I agree with DT that the cultural malaise in the USA is much deeper, but I wouldn't be surprised if I disagreed about what the malaise actually is. Whatever it is, the USA is in no fit state to be advising other countries about their ways of life, and as for running them, well.........



We might add to Galmin's useful articles a well-researched book written by the American criminologists Zimring and Hawkins. It was based around the interesting fact that the assault rate amongst young people across the West is very similar, as is the social pattern, i.e. there are more violent assaults in areas suffering from economic disadvantage and all the stress that accompanies it. In other words, American youth culture is no more aggressive than anywhere else in the West. Sub-cultural explanations are therefore a little weak. The big differences are a) the tendency to use weapons to carry petty altercations to a lethal conclusion and b) long-term exposure to a mass-media that glorifies the use of violence as a principal means of dispute resolution.



Steve H

[Galmin]

Disclaimer: the tables and articles posted/linked by me comes from the US Bureau of Justice Statistics, a branch of the US Justice Department (wich I am sure I duly stated ).



Nevertheless, thanks for the kind words

[NRKofOver]

I've had this discussion so many times with gun people and when I explain that no one can get shot if there isn't a gun in the room, the obvious is often overlooked, .



But, I just wanted to add a bit about the goofiness of American 'freedom' when it comes to guns. In my city you can't carry a concealed weapon without a permit but it is perfectly legal to strap on two shotguns and two high powered rifles along with 500 rounds of ammo, and walk down any city street and actually into most businesses. As well, the governor of our state decided that banning weapons from public (city/state/county) offices was taking away people's freedoms, so now city council meetings throughout the state have people wandering into those meetings with guns, openly and legally.



I've suggested to gun control advocates that they should arm themselves heavily and then wander near parks and schools, through busy downtown streets, into McDonalds and JCPenney, because then people would change much of their opinions about gun control, .

Read all about ME!

[Galmin]

Quote:

---

I've had this discussion so many times with gun people

---

Homicide trends in the U.S. Weapons used. BJS

[memphis mike]

Steve H., what is meant by cultural malaise?