Riots in France could spread through Europe

[DreamTone7]

Not good...it's spreading. Toulouse and Strasbourg incidents, as well as Brussels. (Germany, they think, was a copy-cat crime.)

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opinion.telegraph.co.uk/o...dl0801.xml







The French have long held up their integrationist approach to immigration as a model. Countries with different policies can be forgiven, therefore, for Schadenfreude at the powerlessness of that model to contain rioting over the past 12 days. Yet the rapid spread of the disturbances from the Parisian suburbs to cities such as Toulouse and Strasbourg offers little ground for complacency to neighbours with large immigrant populations, rigid labour laws, self-serving political elites and sluggish economic growth. The torching of cars in Berlin and Brussels over the weekend is a warning that the violence could become more generalised.



Historical comparisons with the May events of 1968, and even the revolutions of 1848, are tempting. Yet to date they are distinguished more by their differences than their similarities. The rioting in France this autumn has no clear political aim beyond an expression of disgust with the government and, in particular, the interior minister, Nicolas Sarkozy. It has not attracted other sections of society, in contrast to 1968, when revolutionary students were joined by the trade unions, or to 1848, when widespread demonstrations brought down the July Monarchy of Louis-Philippe in France, and in Austria forced the resignation of Metternich, the architect of the Congress of Vienna. Jacques Chirac may yet make a scapegoat of Mr Sarkozy, but there is no sign as yet that the president will be forced out of office before his term expires in 2007. As for his hopes of a third term, those expired with the constitutional referendum defeat in May.



Yet this is much more than a little local difficulty. In assimilating Muslim immigrants from Africa and Asia, France and its neighbours face a more profound problem than they did with the revolutionaries of previous eras. The cultural divide is greater and is being widened by a radical Islamic movement which preaches hatred of Western materialism. And the sense of impending crisis is deepened by the extraordinary weakness of those in office.



France is marked by fin de régime rivalry between Mr Sarkozy and Dominique de Villepin, the prime minister. Germany faces the sclerosis of a grand coalition. In Italy, Silvio Berlusconi is more discredited than ever. In Britain, while Tony Blair defiantly bangs the security drum, the electorate waits for him to step down. And all this is taking place against a chronic inability to boost sluggish growth. 1968 or 1848 it may not be, but there is in western Europe a general feeling of malaise, of disillusionment with politicians, expressed by low voting figures. On this, the riots rocking France could feed.

[Galmin]

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The rioting in France this autumn has no clear political aim beyond an expression of disgust with the government and, in particular, the interior minister, Nicolas Sarkozy.

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..and because of this the rioting could spread through Europe?

I can hear them now: "Down with Sarkozy", "Tritt zurück, Sarkozy!", "Avgå Sarkozy", "Sarkozyllä Erota", "traed tilbage Sarkozy", "Sarkozy saatusele" etc, etc.

If the political aim of the rioting is the expression of disgust with the government and you consider the record low rating of GWB, I would say that the rioting could spread to the US first.



Sarkozy says the riots are organized. He sounds more and more like that senior Police Inspector Shrouti from the Ghatkopar Riots in 92-93.



Well, it has to be organized by some evil mastermind that want to hurt the western civilisations, right? Otherwize there would be noone to blame for the riots. Maybe Sarkozy, just like Shrouti, is getting his information from the yellow press?

[HKRockChick]

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If the political aim of the rioting is the expression of disgust with the government and you consider the record low rating of GWB, I would say that the rioting could spread to the US first.

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[DreamTone7]

Attempting to play it down, no matter how hard you struggle at it, won't make it go away, Galmin. The radical Muslims proselytized there, the riots started there. I don't believe in coincidences.



BTW, it sounds like things aren't so good in Sweden, either. More fertile territory for radical Muslims to sow the seeds of anti-western discontent and hatred. Though I'm fond of saying that the solution comes from within, the truth is that the trouble starts from within as well. The radical Muslims are seeing to it that what needs to be within in order to start trouble is in place.

Melody and Instruments for the soul...

[Galmin]

The point is you're wrong to lump it in with Islamist terrorism and conclude that all Muslims are violent. This compares to the Watts riots and does not compare to Bali bombings, London/Madrid subway bombings, 9/11 attacks, etc.

[DreamTone7]

Galmin - "The point is you're wrong to lump it in with Islamist terrorism and conclude that all Muslims are violent."



Well Galmin...now you ARE wrong. That's right...the person who's never wrong is now WRONG! Oh, the shame!



The group I continually mention is Muslim radicals...not terrorists (though terrorists ARE a member of this group), and certainly not all Muslims. I have gone out of my way on several occasions to point out this difference in distinction...seems as if you haven't been reading my posts very closely. But certainly this is how terrorists start out...under the influence of Muslim radical proselytization. And there have been (and most likely still are) Muslim terrorists in France. Algerian ones, at that.

Melody and Instruments for the soul...

[Galmin]

Let's wait with the analysis until France, just like McCone after the Watts riots, have thoroughly investigated the reason for the riots.



I will buy you a beer if it turn out that radical islamic jihad types were responsible for starting the riots. I am pretty sure that should I be right, you will still claim that you actually was right and the Frenchies are "catering to terrorism" again, or some similar lunacy.

[DreamTone7]

OK...but for the record, what is it you think the cause of the riots was? (Can't make it easy on you and just let you say it wasn't radical Muslims).



I do find it interesting why they even thought a fatwa decision not to engage in violence would have any effect on what was going on if it weren't Musilms that were rioting.

[HKRockChick]

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what is it you think the cause of the riots was

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Holy Crqp. Don't you ever read???? and comprehend??? That's what this whole thread and others relating to the same are about!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Suggest you go back and read Galmin's arguments and Bitwhys, and my earlier ones.



Cripes. round and round we go, same as always.

Edited by: HKRockChick at: 11/9/05 15:25

[bitwhys]

relax, Deb (is it Deb?). its just the neocon cheerleader's substitute for Viagra. like the string on the Roly Poly Pudding, its of no consequence.

[MIKE BURN]

The riots in France have nothing, absolutely nothing to do with "radical muslims" or even further "the U.S. war on terror".



As a matter of fact the whole situation has nothing to do with being "muslim" or "U.S. politics".

[DreamTone7]

Then why proclaim a fatwa against fighting, Mike? You obviously aren't aware of how radical Muslims have been proselytizing in France in the poorer districts...or heard that rioters have been heard chanting "Allah is great". Now that you are aware, how do you explain it away?



...or do you just turn a deaf ear to it because it's just to inconvenient for you to have to realize.

[DreamTone7]

HKRC - "Suggest you go back and read Galmin's arguments and Bitwhys, and my earlier ones."



I wasn't speaking to you or bitwhys, now was I? I wanted to know, specifically, what Galmin thinks the cause is...so as to leave little weaseling room down the road. I've said what I think the cause was...if I'm betting a beer, I want to know what he thinks it is. If you don't understand that...well...it doesn't concern you anyway.

Melody and Instruments for the soul...

[Galmin]

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OK...but for the record, what is it you think the cause of the riots was?

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The colonial Apartheid sparked by the deaths of two young men.

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I do find it interesting why they even thought a fatwa decision not to engage in violence would have any effect on what was going on if it weren't Musilms that were rioting.

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Nice try, DT. Noone has said that there are no rioting Muslims.

Just as noone has said there are no rioting Christians, or Hindu's for that matter.

[DreamTone7]

I don't see the Pope calling a "cease and desist" for all rioting Christians in Paris, either. Methinks they're aware of who's rioting and who isn't.