'CIA prisons:' EU warns members

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

In 2004 alone, the US, in coordinated efforts with other supportive countries, arrested almost 300 terrorist suspects. (The number would have been at least 300, but some were shot and killed in fire-fights.) I don't know the number of convictions, since many of them (obviously) are going to be tried in the country they were caught in...but I do know that it is the US that is spearheading the anti-terrorist activities in many countries outside the US. Supportive countries.

That's what we need...coordination. And that's what we're lacking when it comes to many of the european countries. In spite of the fact that we could all do a better job fighting terrorism by working together, their pride and "elitist" (we're better than you are) attitude prevent them from doing what would obviously work to the betterment of all who are opposed to terrorism. It's this european arrogance that stands in the way of progress towards a global, unified stance on terrorism...of drafting international policies on how to deal with terrorists with regards to individual rights (as has been harped on by many on this board)...and of our collective ability to coordinate our activities in a way such that the effects these terrorists have on our way of life can be minimized. (In fact, it's to the advantage of those who enjoy whining to NOT work together and get these issues resolved!) It's this same arrogant attitude and pride that has sounded the death-knell for France on more than one occation...and is why some Americans (and others around the world) have a somewhat low opinion of the French with regards to their ability to defend their own country. That they let the riots in Paris go on as long as they did is testimoney to this.

All this "anti-US" dogma that Mr. Burns happily spreads is exactly the kind of rubbish that makes it more difficult to work together...not easier. You make life easier for terrorists, Mike...you, and those like you. Trying to raise up your own self-esteem by putting others down is childish...and in this case, dangerous to all.

I do not trust europe to take care of itself...the same pride and arrogance that continues to get them into trouble has not changed. They do not learn the lessons from their own history. By the time they do call for help, it's always at the eleventh hour...when it takes a lot more to bail them out than if they had called for a little help or at least begun to work together on the issues earlier (England being an exception to the rule). History is doomed to repeat itself, I believe...the question is: How many times must it repeat itself before people learn from it?

Melody and Instruments for the soul...

Edited by: DreamTone7 at: 12/9/05 22:25

bitwhys · Joined: 19 Nov 2004 Posts: 649

Galmin · The King has spoken! Joined: 30 Dec 2001 Posts: 1711

Well, we're talking about convictions here, not cooked figures about apprehended SUSPECTED terrorists or any other justification from the current Attorney General to try to prolong the lifespan of the Patriot Act©.

"Europe has apprehended and tried more terrorists than the US is likely ever to do."

-Me

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That's what we need...coordination. And that's what we're lacking when it comes to many of the european countries.

No. Wrong again. Stop listen to talk radio, it'll melt your brain.

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In spite of the fact that we could all do a better job fighting terrorism by working together, their pride and "elitist" (we're better than you are) attitude prevent them from doing what would obviously work to the betterment of all who are opposed to terrorism. It's this european arrogance that stands in the way of progress towards a global, unified stance on terrorism...of drafting international policies on how to deal with terrorists with regards to individual rights (as has been harped on by many on this board)...and of our collective ability to coordinate our activities in a way such that the effects these terrorists have on our way of life can be minimized. (In fact, it's to the advantage of those who enjoy whining to NOT work together and get these issues resolved!) It's this same arrogant attitude and pride that has sounded the death-knell for France on more than one occation...and is why some Americans (and others around the world) have a somewhat low opinion of the French with regards to their ability to defend their own country.

We are working together! Had we had a bit more cooperation from the US side, more confirmed terrorists would have been convicted. It seems cooperation for you means that the US calls the shots and the rest deliver. A one way street. A small note about cooperation: remember when the UN weapon inspectors in Iraq wanted the evidence the US claimed to have about locations of WMD stockpiles so they could do their job? That delivery is still pending!

I think sometimes, you're Native American name could be Walking Eagle. I'll tell you why some Americans have a somewhat low opinion of the French right now: France refused lick your collective *ss when it came to Iraq and the US radical right scorned them for it. That France happened to be correct is only a reason to hate them more. Do you want some Freedom Fries with that?

Don't bring the Paris riots into the "war against terror" before you know it actually belongs there (it doesnt, btw). That France quenched the riots with less deaths than a day in Iraq or the Kent state incident is probably nothing you take note about either.

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I do not trust europe to take care of itself

You can stop worrying about it. Europe can and have successfully fought terrorism for a longer time than you can possibly fathom.

Do you know that the Reichstag burned and people willingly gave up their GOD GIVEN rights for the fight against terror and they turned up with the NSDAP running things?

This is the lesson to be learned from that time that you obviously have not understood. At all.

Edited by: Galmin at: 12/10/05 12:44

HKRockChick · No More Peas! Joined: 25 Nov 2003 Posts: 1513

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All this "anti-US" dogma that Mr. Burns happily spreads....

No need for Mike to do any such thing. The US is spreading anti-US dogma ALL by itself. Apparently the rest of the world does a lot more thinking, reading, listening and analysing that the likes of insular tunnel-visioned you, panting after your corrupt leaders.

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You make life easier for terrorists, Mike...you, and those like you.

Not quite. You and the likes of you are the people responsible for driving the terrorist cause and making it SOOOOO much easier for them to recruit. ALL over the world.

Sigh. It would be so nice if you could use that noggin of yours DT. :dunno

Edited by: HKRockChick at: 12/10/05 13:22

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

Galmin - "Well, we're talking about convictions here..."

No...you're talking about convictions...and including internal terrorists (stacking the deck?). And because most of the global terrorists the US has been party to the apprehension of have been off of US soil, your statistic has little relevance (when compared to the US) with regards to the efforts (and results) towards global terrorism. It's apples vs oranges. I'll give you the "tried" part for that exact reason...but as for the "apprehended" part, europe is way behind the US. (And who cares where they are tried as long as they are stopped, anyway?)

Galmin - "It seems cooperation for you means that the US calls the shots and the rest deliver."

I never stated that that is the way it is, or should be. It seems that personal pride is more important to you than stopping terrorists. That is exactly what is preventing the cooperation. Europe wants to be #1 and won't work with anybody unless they are recognized as such.

Galmin - "I'll tell you why some Americans have a somewhat low opinion of the French right now: France refused lick your collective *ss when it came to Iraq and the US radical right scorned them for it."

Maybe some Americans...but not me. And not the majority of Americans, either. Those who have such an opinion about France have held that opinion since way before Iraq was ever an issue. It also doesn't explain similar attitudes of the people of many other countries towards France, either.

Galmin - "You can stop worrying about it. Europe can and have successfully fought terrorism for a longer time than you can possibly fathom."

Not the global kind. It's a new ballgame...and europe has already shown itself ill-prepared to play. It's allowing critics of a hard-line policy towards immigration influence the strength with which it might be able to defend itself in the future. Europe, when it goes, will go from the inside...not from an external force.

HKRC - "Apparently the rest of the world does a lot more thinking, reading, listening and analysing that the likes of insular tunnel-visioned you, panting after your corrupt leaders."

Um...no. But what IS apparent is that you spend your time listening to whoever will help you justify your emotional attitude towards the US...and disregard that which does not support your emotions. Tunnel-vision is an excellent discription of your view of the world. It's really tragic, because until you can dispense with it, you'll never be able to see your own place in the world.

HKRC - "You and the likes of you are the people responsible for driving the terrorist cause and making it SOOOOO much easier for them to recruit."

Indirectly, I agree with you. But it's not me or our government. It's the media...OUR media. It paints a picture to the rest of the world that is full of half-truths and outright lies. But those who swallow it all without question are the ones who commit the greatest injustice. The media is not directly responsible for terrorism...people are. The terrorists are the ones responsible for what they do. How easily you seem to forget that, Deb. Too much reading and listening to the wrong things, maybe?

Melody and Instruments for the soul...

Galmin · The King has spoken! Joined: 30 Dec 2001 Posts: 1711

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No...you're talking about convictions...and including internal terrorists

1, Apprehended and tried terrorists equals confirmed convicted terrorists. As you challanged my statement, this is what we're talking about! Period.

2, I don't have to cook the numbers, I am not US Attourney General. Did you know that Spain convicted 116 ETA members this year alone?

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(And who cares where they are tried as long as they are stopped, anyway?)

A trial is a selfevident part of a working legal system. Of course you can lock all arab looking people in the world to be safe from terrorists but that doesn't make each one of them terrorists. Remember the mass interment of Japanese looking Americans during WWII? What a glorious moment of legal system gone out the window.

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It seems that personal pride is more important to you than stopping terrorists. That is exactly what is preventing the cooperation. Europe wants to be #1 and won't work with anybody unless they are recognized as such.

Wrong. There is cooperation in this particular area. At least from the EU side.

Galmin · The King has spoken! Joined: 30 Dec 2001 Posts: 1711

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allowing critics of a hard-line policy towards immigration influence the strength with which it might be able to defend itself in the future.

France again? Did you know that the large immigration that took place generations ago actually came from France, since Algeria used to be France?

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

Galmin - "1, Apprehended and tried terrorists equals confirmed convicted terrorists. As you challanged my statement, this is what we're talking about! Period."

Since your statement was made in answer to my statement about global terrorists, you are wrong.

Galmin - "A trial is a selfevident part of a working legal system."

I didn't say "if"...I said "where". Methinks you missed your calling Galmin. With the way to try to twist words and lines of discussion so you can once again climb onto your "high-horse", you should have been a politician. You'd have been a successful one...though not necessarily a good one.

Galmin - "France again? Did you know that the large immigration that took place generations ago actually came from France, since Algeria used to be France?"

Yes France...and I'm talking about what they are doing now...not what they did in the past. Find out what Villipin (sp?) is proposing and you'll understand better.

HKRockChick · No More Peas! Joined: 25 Nov 2003 Posts: 1513

"Um...no. But what IS apparent is that you spend your time listening to whoever will help you justify your emotional attitude towards the US...and disregard that which does not support your emotions. Tunnel-vision is an excellent discription of your view of the world. It's really tragic, because until you can dispense with it, you'll never be able to see your own place in the world."

Yah, whoever disagrees with your world view is tunnel visioned, and that happens to be the rest of the world. I wonder what happened there, everyone else marching to the wrong beat except little Johnny, eh???

"Indirectly, I agree with you. But it's not me or our government. It's the media...OUR media. It paints a picture to the rest of the world that is full of half-truths and outright lies"

It is your government. Period. Not the media. The media doesn't stand infront of the podium and sprout BS. The media didnt invade iraq, the media are not the ones who are driving your rogue nation. THAT is what we see when we hear dubya, Rice, rumsfeld etc. We SEE and HEAR directly from the horses' collective mouths. or should that be asses???

:nana

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

Deb...you see only what the media shows you. Nothing more.

HKRockChick · No More Peas! Joined: 25 Nov 2003 Posts: 1513

I'd say thats only what YOU see and that too from the likes of faux news and ann coulter and her ilk. You really really don't know what you don't know, that's the real pity of it all.

MIKE BURN

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http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/12/10/poland.prisons.ap/index.html

Polish probe into alleged CIA jails

Saturday, December 10, 2005 Posted: 1959 GMT (0359 HKT)

WARSAW, Poland (AP) -- Poland's prime minister announced Saturday he was ordering a "detailed" probe into allegations that the CIA ran secret prisons for terrorist suspects on Polish territory.

"I am commissioning a detailed check in all places possible to precisely check if there is any proof that such an event took place in our country," Kazimierz Marcinkiewicz said in remarks shown on Poland's TVN24 television channel.

"It is necessary to finally close the issue because it could be dangerous to Poland," he said.

More than a half-dozen investigations are under way into whether European countries may have hosted secret U.S.-run prisons in which prisoners were tortured, and whether European airports and airspace were used for alleged CIA flights transporting prisoners to countries where torture is practiced.

Galmin · The King has spoken! Joined: 30 Dec 2001 Posts: 1711

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Since your statement was made in answer to my statement about global terrorists, you are wrong.

Hardly. I was the one being asked to rethink my statement. The attention given by you in several posts regarding what i wrote is clearly determenating that my statement was the topic discussed.

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I didn't say "if"...I said "where".

Agreed. It doesn't change how I feel about the matter I described, though.

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Yes France...and I'm talking about what they are doing now...not what they did in the past. Find out what Villipin (sp?) is proposing and you'll understand better.

To understand the situation in full you have to consider the past as well as the contemporary.

The measures suggested by Villepin is a given and I am amazed that similar programs are not in place already.

However:

Remember that Sarkozy ordered the expulsion of all foreign rioters on the spot?

Of the total arrests of 2,888 rioters, some 130 foreigners have been expelled. We either have the disability of the prosecution to prove that the rioters were rioters (not very likely, since all 2,888 were caught in the act), or we have 2,500+ French Citizens cought rioting (thus the problem would be that the absolute majority of the rioters are French). There could be a wall built around France to prevent anyone from entering and still the potential for riots would not change.

Edited by: Galmin at: 12/12/05 11:23

MIKE BURN · Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:50 am Post subject: Re:

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DreamTone7

Galmin - How many global terrorists were arrested in europe last year? Let's limit it to EU countries, for now.

This just in...

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http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/12/11/italy.terror.ap/index.html

Sunday, December 11, 2005 Posted: 2241 GMT (0641 HKT)

MILAN, Italy (AP) -- Italian police were listening as the man identified as an Egyptian radical shouted with joy while watching a video of the beheading of American Nicholas Berg by his al Qaeda captors.

"Come nearer, watch closely, this is the politics you have to follow, the politics of the sword," he advised another man as Berg's screams rang out.

"Go to hell, enemy of God, kill him, kill him, cut it well, cut off his head," he said.

Authorities say the statements recorded from phone taps and microphones show that Rabei Osman Sayed Ahmed, a 34-year-old Egyptian facing trial in Milan next month on terrorism charges, preached a radical form of Islam and the need to carry out holy war against Western elements.

The trial is considered one of Europe's major terrorist prosecutions in recent years. Ahmed is not only accused of terrorist crimes in Italy and of having links to cells across Europe, but he also is considered one of the masterminds of the March 11, 2004, train bombings in Madrid that killed 191 people and wounded more than 1,600.

Guido Guella, Ahmed's lawyer, said his client maintains his innocence and claims he "never had any role in any association with terrorist aims." He said the Egyptian also says he is not the person speaking on the tapes.

But prosecutors say the statements, which appear in a report prepared by Italian anti-terrorism police, are proof of Ahmed's extremist beliefs. He has been indicted on terrorism charges for allegedly planning an attack in an undisclosed location.

In the May 28, 2004, conversation about the Berg tape, Ahmed's co-defendant, 22-year-old Egyptian Yahia Ragheh -- described by authorities as a would-be suicide bomber -- questions Ahmed's assertions.

Spanish officials have described Ahmed as one of the March 11 ringleaders. Italian Interior Minister Giuseppe Pisanu said after his arrest that Ahmed was "probably among the principal authors" of the Madrid bombings, and that he was "preparing other attacks."

Officials have not said where Ahmed, who was trained in the use of explosives in the Egyptian army, was planning the attacks.

Cooperation

Italy handed Ahmed over to Spain last December for interrogation in the Madrid bombings, and Spanish authorities sent him back to Italy in April.

Spanish Judge Juan del Olmo has filed provisional charges against him of mass murder and terrorism. It is not known when indictments may be handed down in Spain.

In the arrest warrant, del Olmo said that while living in Madrid the Egyptian "managed to take control of a small group of Arab followers, all of them with extremist Islamic ideology, supporters of jihad and Osama bin Laden."

The Italian police report alleges that Ahmed used tapes, cell phones and computers as recruitment tools in his travels across Europe. He is also accused of giving lessons on falsifying documents, computers and the need for caution in using communications.

Italian prosecutors cite the case as an example of cooperation among European law enforcement agencies, often seen as unable to coordinate their investigations because of differing laws and traditions.

"Real cooperation is the only instrument to successfully battle international terrorism," said prosecutor Maurizio Romanelli.

They say that investigations in Italy, Spain, Germany, France and Belgium have turned up evidence that a dangerous group of Islamic militants have moved into Western Europe to recruit insurgents to fight in Iraq.

Please notice the following keywords in the article:

PROSECUTION, LAWYER, COOPERATION.

MIKE BURN · Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 12:03 pm Post subject: Re:

Monday, 12 December 2005, 10:35 GMT

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4520862.stm

French target 'Islamic network'

Police investigating suspected plans for attacks in France have arrested at least 20 people during raids in and around Paris.

They described the arrests as a "major operation aimed at disbanding an Islamist network linked to terrorism".

Some of the suspects are believed to have been involved in crimes to help fund Islamic groups.

The raids on homes and internet cafes were ordered by French anti-terrorism magistrates.

BTW.... no secret prisons, no torture was used and you can make a bet that all arrested can call their lawyers.