Sweden continues persecution of Christianity

NRKofOver · Joined: 07 Sep 2002 Posts: 505

Great input! Wow, I'm actually quite impressed with your attempt at cohesion with both experience and what you've read.

The if it feels good mentality is quite different though. No human being in my immense experience has been able to give me the feelings I can give myself, even to this day. So the introduction of a partner must be something other than just feeling good since I can feel good all by myself.

I don't believe your friend (or the millions of other gay people) who says that bisexual people don't exist. I can most certainly spend the rest of my life with the right woman, although the requirments are probably higher for a female rather than a male.

As far as the boob, it was just the catalyst, I would have had an 'aware' erection at some point, probably earlier than most people and I would've have ended up with the same result regardless of the stimulus that happened.

There's no question I had an early sex drive, but I had an early everything. I was a drug dealer at 14, not because of family economics, it was a simple thing for me, I could not get a real job, I wanted more money, and dealing drugs was the simple answer, good wages, very few hours, it worked for me.

At 16 I told my father that if he didn't change his rules I would just move out and get my own place, finish school (I did have strong priorities) and not worry about his expectations any longer.

When I did move out at 18, I never looked back, it has been my life, my rules, my choices ever since.

From a very young age I always saw independence as the only answer, well, as soon as I realized I'd been lied to for so long.

Individuality is what's missing in all of this. People just being themselves without any expectations or requirements.

I'm a bad gay man because I don't believe in nice cars or home decorating, I don't believe in gay marriage or single-gender limitations.

I guess when it's all said and done, I feel like my life has been completely normal. I have learned and I've grown and I'm better because of every experience in my life. I make no apologies and I have no regrets. The world is simply perfect.

My music for the disenchanted masses

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

NRK - "The if it feels good mentality is quite different though."

My inference was that you didn't associate sex with a woman...you associated it with feeling good. Regardless of whether or not it was with a man, a woman, or by yourself. I associate sex with women. The psychological focal point is different. The addition of a partner (regardless of gender), for you, fullfils the emotional portion of the experience only.

NRK - "I don't believe your friend (or the millions of other gay people) who says that bisexual people don't exist."

I think his point was that (in his opinion) there is no difference between being bisexual and gay. He just chose to label himself as "homosexual" as opposed to "bisexual".

NRK - "I would have had an 'aware' erection at some point, probably earlier than most people and I would've have ended up with the same result regardless of the stimulus that happened."

I heard the same thing from that hair-dresser (that people are born gay, or not). I'm not so sure...though I think people can be born with a disposition for it (early sex-drive, etc) For better or for worse, it's not something we can test for. It may be that you associated sex with something other than a woman because of being stimulated so young. Your psychology was not ready to make a hetero connection...it made a different kind of connection. As I mentioned before, higher homosexuality rates among molested boys is part of what draws me towards this conclusion.

Thanks for the talk and the candor, NRK. In spite of the fact that we were talking mostly about your childhood, I honestly hope you have a little bit better feel for who I am as well.

Melody and Instruments for the soul...

Edited by: DreamTone7 at: 11/11/05 5:29

ans · Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 441

"I heard the same thing from that hair-dresser (that people are born gay, or not). I'm not so sure...though I think people can be born with a disposition for it"

Here are the results of some studies, reprinted again from another thread:

* AUSTIN, Tx. -- Researchers from the University of Texas announced on Friday that there are quantifiable differences in the brains of heterosexuals and homosexuals, lending more weight to a growing body of evidence that suggests sexual orientation is hard-wired in individuals from birth.

The Austin American-Statesman reports a series of tests have revealed that brain structures of gay men and lesbians are somehow "hyper-masculinized" during development and respond differently to auditory stimuli than do the brains of heterosexual men and women.

Contrary to the cultural stereotypes that portray gay men as less masculine, the study suggests that gay males actually appear to be more masculine and better endowed physically than their heterosexual counterparts. Researchers said that this was "most likely due to increased male hormones circulating in their brains during development."

"A good way to describe the data from the homosexual males is that they appeared to be hyper-masculinized," said Craig Champlin, an associate professor and co author of the study.

Dennis McFadden, the other author of the study, told the American-Statesman, "Our research reveals that it isn't just parts of the body that are hyper masculinized in homosexual males, but the brain as well."

"Logic suggests that the degree of exposure to androgen -- the male sex hormone - is somehow involved in the production of homosexuality," McFadden said, "and our auditory results are generally in accord with that idea."

McFadden and Champlin said they and their team measured otacoustic emissions, or sounds made by the inner ear, of heterosexuals and gay males and lesbians and that the results found "marked differences between the sexes," the female response being much more acute.

Generally, said McFadden, women have more and stronger inner ear emissions, but the auditory potentials of gay and bisexual women "were shifted in the male direction," he said. "The implication is that some brain structures were masculinized at some time during development."

The paper, published in the current issue of the Journal of the Association for Research in Otolaryngology (ear, nose and throat), said the answer may be found in different "magnitudes and/or timing" of androgen (male sex hormone) exposure in different areas of the brain.

"It is also possible that the amounts available are the same in heterosexual and non-heterosexual subjects, but that -- for whatever reason -- some subjects or some brain sites, are hypersensitive to the androgen (testosterone) levels present during some stage(s) in early development," the American-Statesman quotes the research paper.

Friday's results were a follow up to similar findings McFadden and Champlin published in March 1998. Prior research by the team found differences in the inner ears of lesbians and bisexuals, again noting that this aspect of their hearing had been masculinized. Another physical difference the authors documented had to do with finger length.

"Physiological differences of this sort are highly unlikely to be caused by differences in experience or upbringing," said McFadden

Source

Evolution & Human Behavior. Vol 21(5) Sep 2000, 333-345.

Elsevier Science Publishing, US

Abstract

Sexual orientation may be influenced by prenatal levels of testosterone and oestrogen. There is evidence that the ratio of the length of 2nd and 4th digits (2D:4D) is negatively related to prenatal testosterone and positively to oestrogen. This study reports that: (1) 2D:4D was lower in a sample of 88 homosexual adult men than in 88 sex- and age-matched controls recruited without regard to sexual orientation, (2) within the homosexual sample, there was a significant positive relationship between mean 2D:4D ratio and exclusive homosexuality, (3) overall, there was a decrease in 2D:4D from controls to homosexual men to bisexual men and (4) fraternal birth order, a positive predictor of male homosexuality, was not associated with 2D:4D in a sample of 240 Caucasian men recruited without regard to sexual orientation and 45 homosexual men. Further work is needed to confirm the relationships between 2D:4D and sexual orientation. However, these and other recent data tend to support an association between male homosexuality and high fetal testosterone. Very high testosterone levels may be associated with a sexual preference for both men and women. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2002 APA, all rights reserved)

Fraternal birth order and the maternal immune hypothesis of male homosexuality

Blanchard R

HORMONES AND BEHAVIOR

40 (2): 105-114 SEP 2001

Abstract:

In men, sexual orientation correlates with an individual's number of older brothers, each additional older brother increasing the odds of homosexuality by approximately 33%. It has been hypothesized that this fraternal birth order effect reflects the progressive immunization of some mothers to Y-linked minor histocompatibility antigens (H-Y antigens) by each succeeding male fetus and the concomitantly increasing effects of such maternal immunization on the future sexual orientation of each succeeding male fetus. According to this hypothesis, anti-H-Y antibodies produced by the mother pass through the placental barrier to the fetus and affect aspects of sexual differentiation in the fetal brain. This explanation is consistent with a variety of evidence, including the apparent irrelevance of older sisters to the sexual orientation of later born males, the probable involvement of H-Y antigen in the development of sex-typical traits, and the detrimental effects of immunization of female mice to H-Y antigen on the reproductive performance of subsequent male offspring. The maternal immune hypothesis might also explain the recent finding that heterosexual males with older brothers weigh less at birth than heterosexual males with older sisters and homosexual males with older brothers weigh even less than heterosexual males with older brothers. (C) 2001 Academic Press.

.

Tuesday, March 25, 2003 :

Gays and lesbians have 'gender-bender' brains

6:00:24 PM

Gay men and lesbians have gender-bending brains that contribute to their effeminate and "butch" stereotypes, it was claimed today.

A new study has found that gay men really do think like women, while lesbians show a similar affinity with men.

In tests, scientists found that gay men excelled at mental tasks women generally perform better than men, but were not so good at tasks traditionally seen as "male".

Similarly, lesbians did as badly as heterosexual men in a test geared to get the best out of women.

The traits seem to be "hard-wired" into the brain before birth by varying levels of exposure to the male hormone testosterone, say scientists from the Institute of Psychiatry in London.

Men are generally better than women at spatial perception - the ability to mentally reposition shapes and objects and judge the orientation of lines.

It is for this reason men despair at the apparent ineptitude of women trying to read maps and park cars.

Qazi Rahman and Glenn Wilson conducted a series of neurocognitive tests of spatial skill. They found that gay men performed less well than heterosexual men, but matched the ability of women.

But gay men performed better than heterosexuals and as well as women at remembering the locations of objects in an array.

In several language tests, traditionally a female strong point, gay men did as well as heterosexual women. Lesbians, on the other hand, performed the tests as poorly as "straight" men.

Dr Rahman said: "Because we know that performance on these cognitive tests depends on the integrity of specific brain regions, the differences implicate robust differences between the brains of homosexual and heterosexual men and women and suggest that hormonal factors early in development (probably during the 1st trimester of pregnancy) produce these differences."

The findings are published in a series of articles in the journals Neuropsychology and Psychoneuroendocrinology.

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

Thanks ans. There's a lot of conflicting info here, though. Some reports say that gay men are "hyper-masculinized", while others claim that gay men think like women. What this tells me is that, although they have some results from some tests, they really don't understand completely what's going on. A lot of phrases like "it seems to indicate", instead of anything positively conclusive.

My approach to the whole thing was more of a psychological one as opposed to physiological. It is true that there is a relationship...but it's not clear which is influencing which. In order to know for sure, you'd have to do tests on the brain chemistry of babies and see if the results correlate. Doing tests on only adults isn't conclusive. I'm not sure I'd really want to find out, though. If they could isolate some physiology in a fetus that makes somebody gay, I can envision a future where people might choose to terminate pregnancies based on that. I'd rather not go there.

Melody and Instruments for the soul...

NRKofOver · Joined: 07 Sep 2002 Posts: 505

I've never cared about proving the genetic or in-vitro causes of homosexuality. For me it's a simple issue of freedom regardless of the root causes. I know that child molestation didn't cause me to be gay because I wasn't molested as a child. I know that my family life can't be to blame since I have four brothers and two sisters who experienced the same family situation and none of them are gay. I know that no one forced me or recruited me or encouraged me, in fact the opposite is quite true. So in that respect it's probably something rooted in my biology, but again I don't really care.

I would hate for someone to find the 'gay gene', decide who is and who isn't gay based on that and limit those people's choices in life because of that element. I don't believe in ex-gays because it's retarded, what I believe in is people having the ability to make choices that best fit their goals and desires in life, and if that means living a gay life at one time and now being married to a woman with kids and that meets personal goals and desires, then more power to those people. It doesn't mean they're ex-gay anymore than I'm ex-straight. I don't rule out the possibility of meeting an amazing woman who has similiar life goals and deciding to spend the rest of my life with her. And if I got married and had kids it wouldn't make me anything other than a guy with a wife and kids, not straight or gay. As a child I felt limited by society because of my sexuality and after spending years in the gay community I would say that the gay community is just as stifling with respect to sexual expression. Freedom of sexual expression should be applauded, not limiting with ridiculous labels. DT mentioned that physically he could just not perform with a guy, but is 'homosexuality' sex only? Can you have a meaningful deep relationship with a man? I know many men who have best friends that they interact with more comfortably than they do with their spouses and they'd rather spend most of their time with their guy friends rather than their wives. Do you have to have intimacy or sex to establish sexual orientation?

These are the things that have always perplexed me with regards to sexuality. I don't even know that I identify with the 'gay community' at all. They have their own agenda, their own goals and they rarely parallel mine, as well, because I have been with guys most of my life in my relationships, straight people don't think I'm part of their world. Which is dumb. I bowl two nights a week with a bunch of straight people. I play fantasy football, I host a poker tournament every month, I spend more time in 'straight' pubs than in gay clubs, in fact I haven't been to a gay bar in over a year. I refuse to have my life defined by my sexual choices. I wish more people would look at all of this the same way it would eliminate 90% of the arguments that exist because of such a small part of one's life.

My music for the disenchanted masses

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

NRK - "Do you have to have intimacy or sex to establish sexual orientation?"

OK...stop right there. Intimacy and sex are two different things. While it is true you can have both together, it is also true that you can have either of them without the other. I think the term "homosexual" refers to the sexual response only. Intimacy has nothing to do with it. I have had (and do have) close relationships with some men. Not all are like that, though. Some men just don't get it, others do but are homophobic to the point of not being able to feel comfortable going there, while still others are confident enough in who they are and are deep enough to be able to go there with other people (both men and women). Intimacy has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

NRK - "I refuse to have my life defined by my sexual choices. I wish more people would look at all of this the same way it would eliminate 90% of the arguments that exist because of such a small part of one's life."

Amen and amen. But when a person says that they are homosexual, bisexual, gay, lesbian, or whatever, they have defined THEMSELVES by their sexual choices. I know I don't go around announcing to the world I'm hetero. That is part of the stigma of the sexual revolution...where what goes on in the bedroom gets dragged out in front of everybody for all to see. It forces us to put labels on everything. If it had all remained in the bedroom, methinks it wouldn't be half the issue it is today. Part of the problem is the excessive emphasis of sex in everything (hetero or homo). Couple these two together, and people begin to identify others (and themselves) as hetero, homo, whatever, before they even define themselves as human beings. Sex has a place in our lives, but many have blown it way, way out of proportion as compared to the other, honestly, MORE important aspects of our relationships with people...at least in this country.

Melody and Instruments for the soul...

Edited by: DreamTone7 at: 11/12/05 0:19

RonOnGuitar · Joined: 08 Jan 2003 Posts: 1916

Quote:
I think the term "homosexual" refers to the sexual response only.

I don't use the term "homosexual" as a noun - e.g. "s/he's a homosexual'. I would say that he or she "is homosexual".

I like to be clear in my choice of words, I tend to agree with commentator Dennis Prager who states "clarity is more important than agreement."

I'm a bit amused how a thread about thought-crime persecution of Christians in places like Canada and Sweden flows into other directions! Not complaining, lol - just interesting how the train of thought chugs along.

Now, what's frightening - and not amusing - is bitwhys (or anyone's) absolute trust in a system that would actually consider, much less vote on, adopting the legal system of the Taliban!

:bigeyes

bitwhys · Joined: 19 Nov 2004 Posts: 649

both situtations were outside my province and involved the use of sharia law in divorce proceedings at tribunals only at the consent of both applicants similar to existing programs already for people of other faiths.

for the record, Quebec's motion was a bill OPPOSED to the use of sharia law in the DIVORCE court system and Ontario stepped in when it had to so my lack of concern for both PROVINCIAL matters was well placed.

unlike your snide remark or the faith you placed in the ill-informed hyperbolic half-wit that generated it but I guess you have to work with what you've got.

Edited by: bitwhys at: 11/12/05 15:27

NRKofOver · Joined: 07 Sep 2002 Posts: 505

Quote:
I'm a bit amused how a thread about thought-crime persecution of Christians in places like Canada and Sweden flows into other directions! Not complaining, lol - just interesting how the train of thought chugs along.

About midway into the thread I thought, wow, how do we get this thread back on track, but it was too late,

.

My music for the disenchanted masses