Bush Accepts McCain's Ban on Torture

[Galmin]

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Only if we all agree to this definition, and to its suitability for purposes of the discussion

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We have all reason to, since the Convention definition is the very definition McCain uses and backs his own bill upon. Since this thread is about McCains bill, let's stick to the definition used, since:

1. the Convention bill already specifies torture as I have described above.

2. McCain's bill is based on the Convention bill and uses the same definition.

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Deb - It's easier to understand when you understand that the goal is mutual understanding...NOT to convince somebody else of the validity of your own point of view, or communicate how stupid you might think they are.

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Practice what you preach, DT.

[HKRockChick]

DM:

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Seems to me that McCain has defined it quite nicely, don't you think?

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Galmin:

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Since this thread is about McCains bill, let's stick to the definition used, since:

1. the Convention bill already specifies torture as I have described above.

2. McCain's bill is based on the Convention bill and uses the same definition.

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What's for us to agree on here? There are international definitions. So you don't think these definitions matter? Perhaps they should add rap in somewhere there, eh? Or some text from the bible???

[HKRockChick]

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Deb - It's easier to understand when you understand that the goal is mutual understanding...NOT to convince somebody else of the validity of your own point of view, or communicate how stupid you might think they are.

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Naahh. The goal is NOT mutual understanding, its trying to make YOU understand that there are international standards and laws, not DT standards or USA standards, and that they were established and agreed on with forethought and vision, and its not for us to dismiss them just cause they don't match our world view.



THAT'S the goal. If you don't agree with international laws and definitions feel free to write to those what wrote em and abide by them, including Sen. McCain and now, after a mad fashion, doltish dubya.

[DreamTone7]

Galmin - "Practice what you preach, DT."



All the time Galmin...and you?





Deb - "The goal is NOT mutual understanding, its trying to make YOU understand that there are international standards and laws, not DT standards or USA standards..."



LOL! Actually, there are both...and to say that standards only exist outside of ourselves is to deny our ability to have any effect upon international standards and laws. Something that you go on to suggest I do if I have a problem with them. So, you have contradicted yourself in the same paragraph!



So, if we are to use "The Convention" definition in this thread, how does it define "severe"? Do you know? (In other words, do you even know what you're talking about...or is it just another stepping-stone to rail at the US about something?)



BTW, it should be no surprise that I don't agree with your point of view on a great many things...including your assumed right to dictate to others what their standards should and should not be. How would you like somebody trying to do that to you? Methinks you would violently oppose them. It's a good thing we don't share that character trait.

Melody and Instruments for the soul...

[HKRockChick]

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including your assumed right to dictate to others what their standards should and should not be. How would you like somebody trying to do that to you? Methinks you would violently oppose them. It's a good thing we don't share that character trait.

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OH THE IRONY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Take at look at your country will ya? They do it to the world every single day and here you are trying to reinvent international standards and laws!

[DreamTone7]

ROFL! Um, no. I'm not out to re-invent anything...and am still waiting for you to answer the question posed to you, BTW.

[HKRockChick]

For me, torture would be physical or mental pain inflicted with the purpose of breaking the human spirit. Severe torture could result in the loss of life and/or permanent loss of physical or mental faculties too.



Rap does not figure, and since I'm not a religious nut, destroying my religious books or icons don't figure either. DT, for the purposes of our discussion, you have an even lower threshold of torture, it appears. Do you think listening to RAP is severe? If so, how much more severe would someone slicing off precious parts of your body be in order to extract information from you, or electrocuting you? Is that severe enough for you? Since you're a rabid bible thumper, maybe a Muslim spitting on the bible would be unacceptable to you too, eh?



Now, we've heard your silly little rap analogy - do you think the people in Iraq prisons and Guantanamo bay were tortured or not? And Mr. Master of evasion and grey areas, no waffling - do you or don't you?



As for arguing for the sake of arguing - as I've said before on numerous occasions, give yourself a break and get informed.



This is an interesting one to read:



www.amnesty.org.uk/tortur...tion.shtml



UN Convention against Torture

The UN Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment refers to: "an act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person", for a purpose such as obtaining information or a confession, punishment, intimidation or coercion, "or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind".



The Convention is concerned with torture by government agents of people acting with official sanction. It also establishes the responsibility of the state for an act of torture inflicted "with the consent or acquiescence of a public official". For example, failure to provide protection against violent racist attacks may amount to consent or acquiescence in torture.



IACPPT

The Inter-American Convention to Prevent and Punish Torture defines torture more broadly than the UN Convention. It includes as torture "the use of methods upon a person intended to obliterate the personality of the victim or to diminish his physical or mental capacities, even if they do not cause physical pain or mental anguish".

[Galmin]

You're being constantly silly, DT. We on this BB do not have to define "severe" (and it's not just another stepping-stone to rail at the US about something, ye paranoid freak )

We do not have to, since courts in free countries allover the world (including the US) have already done it for us. There is a reason why Charles Graner and Lynndie England were brought to court and sentenced punishments for their CRIMES. As you may know, their cases was not the first of it's kind. Then again you may be oblivious about that (or at least act as if you are). The formal charge did not even mention TORTURE. Someone obviously didn't think the abuse had been severe enough.



Were is Graner and England these days?

Edited by: Galmin  at: 12/21/05 8:38

[HKRockChick]

Galmin, couldn't have said it clearer.



I think its DT's ill informed point that if HE doesnt accept the rules, they don't exist, and for some reason we all have to agree HERE on what some other rules and standards are so we can have an intelligent debate and decide whether the detainees were tortured or not.



Is this sort of attitude endemic there or what?



course, it could be that little comprehension problem he has...

[DreamTone7]

Deb - So which one do you hold to...the UN version, or the IACPPT version? Or, do you give it all some thought and MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND! Can we please narrow this down instead of making it into a shell-game?





Galmin - Gimme a break, you silly man! Although I do dislike RAP, I would not consider it torture...I brought it up only as an example used to highlite how rediculous the lengths the media will go to in order to justify the kind of headlines that incite people (like Deb) to emotional outrage. The mainstream media has not been about informing people for a long time.



PS - Being paranoid does not mean they aren't after you.

Melody and Instruments for the soul...

[HKRockChick]

DM:

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Now, we've heard your silly little rap analogy - do you think the people in Iraq prisons and Guantanamo bay were tortured or not? And Mr. Master of evasion and grey areas, no waffling - do you or don't you?

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You first DT... we're waiting. Were they tortured or not?

Edited by: HKRockChick at: 12/22/05 1:38

[DreamTone7]

I have an answer for you, but I asked you a question first and you haven't yet given me a complete answer...and I'm quite the patient person these days, Ms. Evasion.

[Galmin]

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Although I do dislike RAP, I would not consider it torture

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Even if you would, you could hardly find a court of law that would support that notion.

It seems you've already yourself determined that such a treatment would not be severe enough to be called torture, right?

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I brought it up only as an example used to highlite how rediculous the lengths the media will go to in order to justify the kind of headlines that incite people (like Deb) to emotional outrage. The mainstream media has not been about informing people for a long time.

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You brought it up as an example? You blew it.

You can quit the slants against Debbie right away or my participation in this discussion ends here.

[DreamTone7]

Galmin - "Even if you would, you could hardly find a court of law that would support that notion."



So make up your mind...concern that people not get tortured, or concern that the law is upheld. Since the two are not completely identical, which is it we're discussing?





Galmin - "It seems you've already yourself determined that such a treatment would not be severe enough to be called torture, right?"



Yes...but only as far as I am concerned. We have yet to determine it for the purpose of our discussion here.





Galmin - "You brought it up as an example? You blew it.

You can quit the slants against Debbie right away or my participation in this discussion ends here."



I will not subject myself to your ultimatums. Do as you will. Niether you nor Deb have been able to come up with a solid, non-wishy-washy defintion of "torture" as to be used in the discussion, anyway.

[DreamTone7]

BTW, no slight intended against Deb...the media is what I have serious issues with.

Melody and Instruments for the soul...