'CIA prisons:' EU warns members

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

Not off of US soil it doesn't.

Galmin · The King has spoken! Joined: 30 Dec 2001 Posts: 1711

Quote:
Not off of US soil it doesn't.

The U.S. Constitution

Section 2 - --- Original Jurisdiction ---

(The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority; to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls; to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction; to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party; to Controversies between two or more States; between a State and Citizens of another State; between Citizens of different States; between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.)

Edited by: Galmin at: 12/5/05 12:58

MIKE BURN · Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:53 pm Post subject: Re:

Quote:
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/05/us.secretprisons.ap/index.html

Rice replies to critics on CIA

Setting off for Germany Monday, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice responded to European critics of tough U.S. tactics in the war on terror -- maintaining that intelligence gathered by the CIA has saved European lives.

Talking for the first time in detail on reports of secret CIA-run prisons, Rice said: "The United States does not transport, and has not transported detainees from one country to another for the purpose of interrogation and torture."

Mrs. Rice, I think we Europeans care about our own lives.

Quote:
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1797568,00.html

CIA Affair Threatens Transatlantic Relations

Reports of secret CIA prisons in Europe and clandestine CIA flights are forcing reluctant European officials to begin asking Americans questions more forcefully than they initially wanted to.

At first it was a muted response. Friso Roscam Abbing, spokesman for justice and security affairs for the European Commission, said that the body did "not see any reason now to ask for further clarification at this point in time" regarding the existence of secret CIA prisons in eastern Europe after word leaked out in early November.

But European politicians, wary of another rift with the US only a few years after disagreements over the Iraq war led to postwar lows in the transatlantic relationship, couldn’t stop the grumbling of the public, the media or the independent Council of Europe, which decided to open an investigation.

Then events hit even closer to home: six European countries, including Sweden and Spain, have opened investigations into whether the CIA used their airspace and airports for secret flights to transport suspected terrorists. Germany alone, according to news reports, can count as many as 80 flights, including instances where officials believe suspects may have been interrogated or tortured.

ans · Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 441

GALMIN: The U.S. Constitution

Section 2 - --- Original Jurisdiction ---

(The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority; to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls; to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction; to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party; to Controversies between two or more States; between a State and Citizens of another State; between Citizens of different States; between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.)

Good research, Galmin - lurkin' for the response

:popcorn

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

Bad interpretation Galmin...though I was kinda figuring you'd try. :bleh

The key word is "between"...as in "not to". The Constitution does not apply "to" individuals of foreign countries, but to relationships that the US forms "between" us and them.

MIKE BURN · Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:07 pm Post subject: Re:

Ahhhhhh... Mrs. Rice meanwhile doesn't DENY the transport anymore:

Quote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4499648.stm

Rice defends US terror policies

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has admitted that terror suspects are flown abroad for interrogation, but denied they were tortured.

She said suspects were moved by plane under a process known as rendition, and that this was "a lawful weapon".

She refused to address claims that the CIA runs secret prisons abroad where suspects are interrogated without reference to international law.

NRKofOver · Joined: 07 Sep 2002 Posts: 505

I'm still finding this whole thing amazing.

The McCain anti-torture bill passed the Senate 90-2 and the Bush administration, rather than sticking with the veto threat, are now saying that such a law violates the constitutional power bestowed upon the President, and the whole time saying that they don't torture people.

This is just bizarre. I never imagined in my life that anyone, anywhere, would say that making torture illegal is a bad idea.

My music for the disenchanted masses

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

NRK - There's a lot more going on that meets the eye. It's called politics...and it has little to do with "torture" itself. McCain has been out to cause trouble for the presidency since McCain lost the nomination to Bush years ago. The mud-slinging between the two became quite severe, and methinks each took it personally. Bush would most likely try to cast down a "pro-torture" bill, if it was proposed by McCain...the subject of the bill being immaterial. McCain, being well aware of all this, would most likely have chosen another avenue for this bill if its passing was indeed his main concern. Instead, McCain chose a direct, confrontational approach.

McCain may well be trying to set himself up for a future nomination...the whole "torture" issue may be just a stepping-stone for McCain to win future "left" votes. Unfortunately, the success of this bill may not be the prime issue for McCain...he'll get his brownie points with "leftists" whether it gets vetoed or not.

Melody and Instruments for the soul...

Galmin · The King has spoken! Joined: 30 Dec 2001 Posts: 1711

Quote:
McCain has been out to cause trouble for the presidency since McCain lost the nomination to Bush years ago. The mud-slinging between the two became quite severe, and methinks each took it personally.

Yeah, it was particularly vivid in last election where McCain supported Bush. All that hatred. *Shudder*

Quote:
Bush would most likely try to cast down a "pro-torture" bill, if it was proposed by McCain...the subject of the bill being immaterial.

Bush, the lame duck, would shoot down any bill from a Senator just because of politics, disregarded how essential, needed an ingenious such a bill would be? What an incredible notion. Irresponsible. Yet somehow that word describes his entire career.

Quote:
McCain, being well aware of all this, would most likely have chosen another avenue for this bill if its passing was indeed his main concern. Instead, McCain chose a direct, confrontational approach.

It seems to me that McCain choses the venue the entire lawmaking system is built upon. He is, after all, a Senator!

McCain was a prisoner of war and in that capacity he was being TORTURED! How can you, for a split second, think that 'the whole "torture" issue may be just a stepping-stone for McCain to win future "left" votes'.

What's with the citation marks you set around TORTURE?

Is the bill not about real TORTURE?

Galmin · The King has spoken! Joined: 30 Dec 2001 Posts: 1711

Quote:
Unfortunately, the success of this bill may not be the prime issue for McCain...he'll get his brownie points with "leftists" whether it gets vetoed or not.

It is clear that he already got the support from the Republican and Democrat Senators.

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

You either don't know much about US politics and what went on between Bush and McCain when they had a face-off prior to Bush getting the Republican nomination...

...or turning a blind eye to things when it suits you, Galmin?

Galmin · The King has spoken! Joined: 30 Dec 2001 Posts: 1711

Quote:
You either don't know much about US politics and what went on between Bush and McCain when they had a face-off prior to Bush getting the Republican nomination...

I probably know more than most foreigners about the mudslinging in South Carolina during the 2000 Republican primary. I particularly was amused by the "McCain is mentally unstable and has an illegitimate black child".

In the face of all this, McCain supported Bush in the most recent election. He even defended Bush as late as Sunday, Nov. 13, 2005 in his speech about how it's "Wrong to Attack Bush"

It looks more like you're the one who don't know much about US politics.

Let's go back to the "we don't torture, but we will try our outmost to kill a bill that is making sure we don't" insanity.

MIKE BURN · Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: U.S. admits CIA case error

Aha, some progress here under European pressure...

Quote:
Merkel: U.S. admits CIA case error

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/12/06/germany.rice.ap/index.html

Tuesday, December 6, 2005 Posted: 1334 GMT (2134 HKT)

BERLIN, Germany (AP) -- German Chancellor Angela Merkel has said the United States has admitted making a mistake in the case of a German national who claimed he was wrongfully imprisoned by the CIA.

Merkel spoke Tuesday during a press conference with U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who refused to discuss specifics with reporters. The two women leaders' first meeting was dominated by questions about U.S. terrorism policies, including the five-month detention of Lebanese-born Khaled al-Masri and reports of secret CIA prisons and potentially illegal use of European airports and airspace to transport terror suspects.

"The American administration is not denying" it erred in the case of al-Masri, Merkel said through a translator.

Merkel welcomed that admission and added that she is grateful for Rice's assurances that the United States conducts anti-terror operations legally and without the use of torture.

Al-Masri is expected to sue the CIA on Tuesday in Washington. He claims he was seized while on vacation in Europe last year and then brought to a U.S. prison in Afghanistan, where he was mistreated and interrogated for suspected ties to the al Qaeda terrorist group.

The German parliament will soon take up the matter, Merkel said, adding, "That is appropriate."

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

Progress indeed...since the topic of this thread concerns "torture", and there was non mentioned by this individual.

bitwhys · Joined: 19 Nov 2004 Posts: 649

www.guardian.co.uk/usa/st...29,00.html

Quote:
Prosecutors in Munich have reportedly asked Spanish police for a copy of their report. They are looking into the kidnapping of a German citizen, Khaled al-Masri, who was snatched in Macedonia in January 2004 and taken to a jail believed to be in Afghanistan. Al-Masri says he was shackled, beaten, injected with drugs and questioned persistently about his alleged links with al-Qaida. He was returned to Albania six months later, apparently after his kidnappers realised they had the wrong man.

justice american style :count