Bush Accepts McCain's Ban on Torture

[NRKofOver]

I'll jump in. I don't care about what the laws are and how they're applied. It's possible that Bush and his friends are entirely within the law but they're still behaving horribly.



All people need to be treated with respect. Subjecting anyone to anything they are bothered by is 'torture'. That does include forced 'rap music'.



All humans, regardless of what they've done in life deserve the basic necessities, nourishment and protection from the elements as well as medical care when needed.



Any other activities they are involved in should be voluntary. Interrogation is 'torture' if the subject doesn't want to be interrogated. No one should be compelled to a session of questions by authorities if they don't want to.



Free will and choice are human rights and it doesn't matter if you blew up a cafe, outside of being in prison and confined after being fairly and justly convicted, you still have free will and choice and should not be compelled or forced to do much of anything you choose not to.

My music for the disenchanted masses

[Galmin]

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So make up your mind...concern that people not get tortured, or concern that the law is upheld. Since the two are not completely identical, which is it we're discussing?

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My concern is that people not get tortured as defined by law. In that respect, the two are completely identical. There have been enough cases of the precedential kind along the line for us not to have to determine what is already set as juridical fact.

[DreamTone7]

Galmin - "My concern is that people not get tortured as defined by law."



So, if they get tortured outside the boundries of law, that's OK with you, right? Do you fully understand what you're saying here?

[Galmin]

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So, if they get tortured outside the boundries of law, that's OK with you, right?

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Of course not, since torture is, indeed, illegal. There is no "outside the boundries of law" regarding torture.

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Do you fully understand what you're saying here?

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As a matter of fact, I do. Would your country only uphold your own already existing domestic laws aswell as international law, we wouldn't even have this discussion.

Edited by: Galmin  at: 12/27/05 22:22

[NRKofOver]

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Would your country only uphold your own already existing domestic laws aswell as international law, we wouldn't even have this discussion.

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Let's be a bit more specific here, , if our current moronic leaders, who believe in things like 'Absolute Presidential Authority', would uphold current law . . ..



There have been abundant examples of our government leaders using 'national security' to do unethical things before, but since 9/11 it appalls me the lengths our leaders will go to just to find ways to do whatever they want.



I don't need that much security. I don't want that much security. Geez, we might as well move right into totalitarian fascism if the only goal is safety and security.



A little risk is necessary for a little freedom and a lot of risk is necessary for a lot of freedom. I'd rather be free and at risk than safe and not free.

My music for the disenchanted masses

[DreamTone7]

Galmin - "There is no "outside the boundries of law" regarding torture."



LOL! ROFL! Galmin!!! So if it's not torture according to the law, it's not torture at all??? But if what is torture for some is not for others, then you would have to be able to look a person straight in the face and tell him he is not being tortured because the law says he isn't!!! That's nothing short of absurd! It is not up to the law to make these determinations for us...WE AS INDIVIDUALS decide for ourselves when we are hurt, offended, disrespected...and, yes, tortured. Granted there has to be a law so that we can prosecute offenders of it...but it is the spirit of said laws that is what is important!



Let's not begin to confuse reality with "the law", OK?





Galmin - "Would your country only uphold your own already existing domestic laws aswell as international law, we wouldn't even have this discussion."



Specifics, please...needed partly because we apparently have a very different way of looking at some things, and because I want to be very clear as to what laws you seem to think have been violated.





NRK - "I don't need that much security."



Tell it to the 9/11 victims. We all don't need it...until we fall victim to a lack of it. Granted, it's a fine line to walk...how much is enough, and how much is too much. But because we know less about what is actually happening in the terrorist/security arena than we think we do (thanks yet again to the brainwashing of the media), we do need to trust our leaders to a certain extent. I suppose if I dedicated my life to finding out the real answer as to how much security is enough, I could figure it out. I don't have time for that, and am astute enough to know that others on this board don't have the time for it either. They wouldn't have time to post messages here, otherwise.





NRK - "Geez, we might as well move right into totalitarian fascism if the only goal is safety and security."



Something we difinitely have to be on the lookout for...but we're a much longer way off than some countries...and not even close to what Germany had 60+ years ago. The media would have you believe otherwise, so your concern is not surprising to me in the least.





NRK - "A little risk is necessary for a little freedom and a lot of risk is necessary for a lot of freedom. I'd rather be free and at risk than safe and not free."



Well said...but this still does not get us any closer to the answer as to how much is enough. We live in a democracy where it's the general will of the people that determines these things. You may not want a lot of security, but you are not the only person living in this country. There are others who want much more than we have now, I'm sure.



Personally, I think it's all a media smokescreen. I'm much more concerned with the way banks and financial institutions violate our privacy than I am the government. It's the banks that will make the final push to get chips implanted in us all for purposes of buying and selling down the road. You watch...it's coming.

[NRKofOver]

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Tell it to the 9/11 victims. We all don't need it...until we fall victim to a lack of it. Granted, it's a fine line to walk...how much is enough, and how much is too much.

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Security is false, it's an illusion and that's what our government is giving us, an illusion of safety.



In the meantime, they are torturing people, for our safety, and illegally wiretapping, for our safety, and god know what else, all for our safety, when the 9/11 commission just came out and said that we're no safer today than we were before 9/11. All of this stuff that they're doing is for their own reasons, not the safety of Americans and even worse, it's just wrong.



I don't ask myself whether or not something I do is beneficial, I ask whether or not it's right or wrong. I wish our leaders would take the same approach, especially since this administration talked so damn much about bringing an ethical and moral strength to government, what a bunch of lying hypocrites.

My music for the disenchanted masses

[DreamTone7]

What's up with you, NRK? You're usually pretty level-headed, but now you're just ranting...?

[NRKofOver]

I'm fed up DT, this adminstration just loads on one thing after another, just when you think you've heard the worst of it, something is revealed where they've done something even worse than before.



I can't believe that any American has any respect for these guys and I can't believe they haven't been thrown out on their arses.



There is no 'level-headed' discussion regarding these liars and crooks.



They have no respect or concern for Americans or American ideals.



I wonder what's coming next. That two or three or forty or two hundred Americans have been detained without due process or access to counsel but that it was for our safety?



I just have no faith left in these people, they have said that they are above the law, that the President has absolute authority and that what us measly citizens think really doesn't matter.



And I'm astounded that only a handful of Americans are bothered by all of this.



I've never been a big fan of politicians because they are generally unethical bastards who see what they can get away with, but in my lifetime I've never seen an administration with such arrogance and apparent disdain for the American people and the ideals this country is based on and I can't deal with it anymore.



They are horrible people with an horrible agenda and if I was Christian I might start to believe that Bush is the anti-Christ.

My music for the disenchanted masses

[NRKofOver]

Let's just start from the beginning.



Playing up questionable intelligence to justify an apparently unjustifiable war.



Abu Graib abuse scandal, apparently with many people in the administration believing nothing wrong was done.



The detaining and jailing of people without charges, due process or legal recourse.



The CIA kidnapping people from their legal homes.



Torture allegations at Gitmo and the administration refusing access to accountability groups.



Leaking names of CIA agents for political reasons.



Blocking a law to ban torture! Wow!



Secret prisons outside of all accountability laws.



Transfering of people held as criminals through countries that did not authorize such transfers.



Warrantless spying on Americans.



How much do these guys have to do that is horribly wrong before people really get upset?



Edit: Oh I forgot, these morons couldn't even get food and water to people who were stranded and dying after a hurricane. I could've done that.

My music for the disenchanted masses

Edited by: NRKofOver at: 12/28/05 23:30

[Galmin]

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LOL! ROFL! Galmin!!! So if it's not torture according to the law, it's not torture at all???

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Look. Read the definition. This time you will be very well served to not getting hooked up on one single word and instead try to comprehend the entire content. Good luck!

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That's nothing short of absurd! It is not up to the law to make these determinations for us...WE AS INDIVIDUALS decide for ourselves when we are hurt, offended, disrespected...and, yes, tortured.

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Wow. Do you realize you just opened up a whole new venue for class action suits regarding rap-torture?

"WE AS INDIVIDUALS decide for ourselves when we are" [insert mob justice hanging offense here]? Incredible.

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Granted there has to be a law so that we can prosecute offenders of it...but it is the spirit of said laws that is what is important!

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The definition in the Torture Bill is perfectly sufficient. Why is it so hard for you to accept that? You wanted Debbie to define what constitutes torture and all the time you are thinking that "well, it's an individual thingie". Get real.

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Specifics, please...needed partly because we apparently have a very different way of looking at some things, and because I want to be very clear as to what laws you seem to think have been violated.

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Want me to make a list?

[bitwhys]

this thread is torture

[NRKofOver]

Then you should not be subjected to this thread by force, !

My music for the disenchanted masses

[Galmin]